Elle's story
Speaker 1
Okay. So what were your life circumstances, when you found out that you were pregnant with the pregnancy that you then went on to lose.
Speaker 2
So I have a partner, a husband. And at the time, I had my two sons, who were, I guess three and five when I got pregnant. I'm a freelance theatre practitioner, so I was working hard at the time and had quite a lot of work lined up. And my husband was a teacher and at the time that we got pregnant, he had just literally then just given up teaching and setup his own business. So we were going through quite a lot of change. But yeah, and it was Christmas time.
Speaker 1
And how did you feel about the pregnancy?
Speaker 2
It was, it was an accidental pregnancy, if that's the right word, it was a surprise. So at first we were quite, we'd always mooted the idea of having a third child, but it definitely didn't feel like, you know, you don't always choose the time, but we hadn't chase that time and it was a bit like, oh my gosh, okay, right we'll have to work that out. But then very quickly became really excited about it, even though it was a surprise.
Speaker 1
And how did you find out that there was a problem with the pregnancy?
Speaker 2
I just, one evening, I just went to the toilet and there was kind of quite a lot of dark blood in my knickers, and it was the biggest shock I've ever had because I had blissfully gone through two of the kind of most easy and healthy pregnancies with the two boys. So I just I very kind of foolishly and naively just had never ever thought that anything would happen to a pregnancy of mine, I suppose it's kind of foolish of me. But yeah, it was just such a shock. I just went to the toilet and there was this blood and I just knew straight away I think it was weird. Yeah.
Speaker 1
And, and sort of, and then what happened? What happened next?
Speaker 2
So, oh sorry, I didn't really plan to... I should have really got my facts straight in my head before I had this chat. Okay, so then what did I do? We phoned... Because I was 11 weeks, I don't think, I'm just trying to think whether we've, I think we must have phoned the triage ward, you know, the maternity ward. And they said, hold on and see what happens overnight kind of thing. And so I went to bed that night. And I mean, I went into such a state of shock at the time, I was like, had like, you know, when you get shock shakes, I like was shaking and shaking and shaking. Anyway, I went to bed that night and had a hot water bottle and you know, did loads of googling because we just knew nothing about it. And then read that, oh, you can have a bleed in early pregnancy and then it's all alright. So went to bed that night and actually didn't bleed during the night. So I was like, oh, maybe, maybe it's okay, maybe it's not happening, maybe it's just a bit of something. And then I woke up in the morning, and then I stood up snd more came out but it was never like a mad gush of blood. Nothing dramatic. No, no real pain. It was like a bit a little bit of a dull ache. And then I have a feeling like it was the weekend or something like that or some reason why we couldn't go into hospital then, so I had a few, I think, it was, it was a weekend. So I had, then I had a Sunday where I was like bleeding on and off but nothing dramatic still. And then I guess on the Monday we went into hospital, and they did a scan and there was no heartbeat. So they said either you can try and pass it naturally or you can take these drugs to have, to get it out, or last case scenario would do, a DNC but they don't call anymore that do they? So I was like well, it doesn't feel like it's happening that, or that I can't remember, they say suggested I took the drugs because it didn't feel like it was happening naturally. There was a lot, it was, I have to say that, really weirdly it felt like the maternity unit was like, worked really smoothly if you had a pregnancy that was going to plan and as soon as it wasn't going to plan they didn't know what they were doing. Everyone that I met was very nice, particularly the midwives, but then you have to get seen by a doctor to get a certain amount of thing, like to get the prescription and stuff, and it just felt like everything broke down once the pregnancy wasn't going as a planned pregnancy. So it was a lot of waiting around and being forgotten about in waiting rooms and then being seen by one doctor. And then that doctor wanting another doctor to see me and then them forgetting about me, you know, that kind of stuff. Anyway, I've got the drugs, and I came home and took them and had quite a lot of pain, and passed a lot more blood and passed some kind of bits of tissue, I suppose. And then spoke to the midwife on the phone and she was like, yeah sounds like that's kind of successfully evacuated. Do a pregnancy test in a couple of weeks. And if it's negative, that's you done kind of thing. And I was like, Okay, fine. And then I did the pregnancy test in a couple of weeks. And a really, really faint, positive came up. And I was like, I can't be like, you know, there's no way this must just be... Oh, and, my sisters, my sister in law's friend is an obs and gynae doctor, so I kind of know her a little bit and messaged her and she said you can, there can be a trace of the hormone in your body still, so just wait another couple of weeks and do another one. And I did another one. And it was even fainter that time. So I was like, I must just, you know, I must just be holding on to a bit of the hormone. So kind of forgot about it. Obviously, you know, it was really, it was a really emotional time. But I then became really busy with work and just kind of moved on. So this was all in the February of 2019. And then, by the end of April, I would say I had, still hadn't had a period and I was like this is a bit weird. But I was away, I was working in London and all my health care providers are in Hereford. So, oh yes, that's it, so when I'd had the miscarriage they'd seen a cyst on my ovary, so they were like, oh, they'll book me in for an appointment in May or something just to check. They were like, it's probably just, you know how they swell up and go down on your ovaries as you were relating whatever so they were like, but now we've seen it, we just need to check it goes down. So I knew that was coming up. So I thought oh, well that, I'll have that and they can tell me if there's anything going on then anyway, before that happened I was just finishing this job in London at the end of April and it was really bizarre, just standing in the kitchen and like a huge horde full of blood just gushed out of me. So it was like February, March, April... Yeah, it was a good two months, two and a half months after the miscarriage, or even nearly three months after the miscarriage I thought completed and it was insane. Like I just could not stop bleeding, like bleeding and bleeding and bleeding and bleeding bleeding. Like I managed to leave the house by like wedging like three giant sanitary towels in and got to hospital. And so then I was at St Thomas's Hospital in London and the woman that I saw there was like well you're probably pregnant again, do a pregnancy test, you're probably having another miscarriage. Right I knew I wasn't pregnant again I was like, anyway she did a pregnancy test, she was like no you're not pregnant. She was awful, her bedside manner was awful, anyway, so we did that and then I was like well I need to get home so I got on a train. And I think just by chance then I had my appointment for this cyst thing, I can't, it's all a bit muddled. Anyway, so I went into Hereford hospital and they looked inside me and there was, in my womb there was pregnancy matter the size of a tennis ball still in there. And, so that, okay, right, that's been in there for months now. We better get that out. Again, it was just like, different doctor every time, being seen like just the communication really not very free flowing and I got seen by three doctors on that occasion I think, and none of them were passing on the information. So I was having to re-explain each time, the story. And so then I got booked in for an evacuation and I didn't see the doctor who did it once, I saw the anesthetist, I had a general anaesthetic. And then afterwards I didn't see the doctor either, someone else came around and said, oh, it's all gone fine. I was like, okay, great. So now we're into May. And so obviously, I thought it was over then. And then May went by and again, I didn't have another period, I didn't have a period. And then in June, I started having what I thought was a period, and then I passed this like huge chunk of tissue and saved it, because I was like, this is mental voice going on and took it in a pot to the hospital. And the pain was like insane when all that passed. And the doctor that I saw was like, oh, well you must have dilated to three or four centimeters to get this out. So like halfway through dilation. And this was after the evacuation. I was like, how, like, did she, because, again, I was speaking to this friend who's an obs and gynae, and she was like, how did that doctor not see that massive? How did they do an evacuation and leave that behind? Because she was I always do it with a camera on it. So you're looking at the womb as you're evaluating. Checking it's all cleared. But again, I never saw this woman that had done the procedure. And the doctor that I saw was like, oh, I don't know, don't know, basically, like I just got, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. And then I think, yeah, so that happened and then I got sent away again and he was like, that should be it now. And that was kind of it. And then I didn't, I was like waiting for it. I didn't know if it was over or not. And then I had a normal period. So I was like, okay, that's I think that's it. Um, but it was weird, because I was kind of, I had, so that was June and then I had like, a normal period in July, a normal period in August. And then I was saying, we were like, right, we do want to have another baby, and I was like, I should probably go and get it checked out that everything's okay. But then we got pregnant, so I was quite anxious, I suppose at the beginning of the pregnancy with Bonnie because I was like, well, what if there's stuff left in my womb, I don't know what that means for her. And then, I didn't know it was a her then. Um, and then I did have a little bleed with her, which was obviously absolutely terrifying. Um, but they were really good at that time with me. So I went into A&E, and then I got straight put onto the ward, but they can't, it was the nighttime and they don't have sonographers at night, in the nighttime, so they couldn't check whether I was miscarrying or whether the heartbeat was there until the morning. So I, but I was 17 weeks when this happened with her so I could feel like tiny flutters of movement. And that night, I secretly kind of knew she was okay because I could feel tiny bits of movement. Well I was praying, she was okay. And then the next morning, they did a scan and the heartbeat was there and the baby was fine. And it had just been that the, I can't remember what they call it, but there's a double lining and it had slightly torn away. And it had just had a tiny bleed from that. So, yeah, it was all a bit definitely more scary with her than the other two but yeah, so that was, that was the drama of last year. So I said to Jen, I was like, I got up and my body feels knackered. Sorry, Jen's my sister, I'm assuming you knew. And she's like, yeah, but you've been pregnant for like, a year and a half solidly. Or even more. Yeah, so it was a lot. I only, I, yeah, so I got pregnant in December 2018 and had Bonnie in June 2020. And I kind of, I suppose my body only thought it wasn't pregnant for two months in that time.
Speaker 1
Wow. I'm so sorry you went through all that, what a like, what a horrible experience.
Speaker 2
It was just, it was bizarre, because it felt like they didn't know what was going on, but they weren't particularly interested in finding out how to end it. I was like, I don't want to be, I just didn't want to be pregnant anymore. You know, I just wanted it over like, and I suppose at the beginning I was like I feel like I've got off quite lightly with this miscarriage because people just, you know, once you start talking about it you realise how many people have gone through it and people were describing all this pain and all this loads of blood and stuff, and I was like, well, you know, maybe I'm just lucky. And then I realised it was all still inside me like, crazy. Yeah.
Speaker 1
Wow, so what was the sort of the emotional fallout or the emotional challenges you face as a result of that whole experience?
Speaker 2
I suppose, um, the beginning, the beginning of the miscarriage where I thought that I'd just miscarried in February was, I don't know what a normal response is, but I was just really sad and watched a lot of Friends and cried on the sofa and had a hot water bottle and ate loads of chocolate, you know, like that was. And then I felt like it was over and I was really busy. And, you know, I think I kept thinking, well I've got two kids, like I didn't, I didn't feel a grief, like I could imagine people would feel if it was like, a really longed for child, you know, I didn't, I can't describe it as that kind of grief. It was a great sadness, and it was, you know, you do, you project don't you. So I'd already thought about having a baby and the time of year that that baby was going to come and all, you know, all the practical things around it and all of that. And, um, and I was sure that it was a girl and I'd had two boys so I was like really like, oh, and so I really was very sad. But I think the sadness got shelved quite quickly, because life kind of continued. And then when the, the kind of second round of the miscarriage as I describe it, happened, I really wasn't sad about losing a baby then at all. I just was like, I was worried about myself, to be honest, I was like I just need to be healthy for my kids. Like, I didn't know what was going on. And I, it felt all wrong, you know? And I'd, I didn't, you know like, when I, when I, when all this matter was coming out they were asking me if I wanted to cremation or wanted to bury it and stuff. And I was just saying no, just no, I didn't, I really didn't associate it with a dead baby, it was just this stuff that had like stayed inside me. So I don't know if that weirdly kind of maybe in a way, if it had all come out in one go at that point, I would have really associated it with this baby that I was losing. Whereas, by the time it was coming out I was like, get out of me, you know. Um, and then I was just really, once, once it was out, I was just relieved like, having my period was like a real relief because I was like, I'm back to kind of normal, you know, so it felt, it didn't feel like a sadness. And then we were just, we just, you know, we consider ourselves really, really lucky we then got pregnant really easily and had this beautiful healthy baby. So I didn't have much time to be really sad, I suppose. But I was definitely really, really much more anxious with the pregnancy with Bonnie. Yeah, becasue I'd had all that. But I think they were really, I had a midwife that was the same midwife all the way through. And she was just, she kind of took it upon herself to be really caring. And I had a number, phone number for her, which was amazing. So if ever I felt worried about anything, I could phone her up and yeah, so the experience was, it was just, and they offered me to have, um, I don't know what they call it, but like a surgeon-led pregnancy, a clinical pregnancy team. And I said no. And I'm so glad I just had this amazing midwife and she actually was then the midwife present at Bonnie's birth. All the way through, it was, yeah, really special. So the fallout I suppose... By the end, it felt more physical than emotional. It felt more like the toll on my body was just like, uh, um, and I suppose, I don't know, God was I in denial all that time when it was still inside me and I was just working really hard, I was just like, in my head I was like I know something's not right because I haven't had a period and, but I just needed to get to the end of this job. And so maybe I've been like holding onto something really tight and I remember going into my boss at the time's office at the theatre, and just like, she was a, she's a woman so it felt, you know, and she's a very caring person and I just like, sobbed and sobbed, so there was obviously a lot held in to be let out. But I think I did let it all out. So probably don't feel like it's still there now.
Speaker 1
And, um, it sounded quite frightening hearing you talk about it, that experience of being you know, you were away from home, you were in London working and then standing in the kitchen and this thing happened, where suddenly all this, there was all this blood. I mean, I don't want to project onto that but was that quite a frightening or traumatic experience? Or did you know what that was at that point?
Speaker 2
It was really frightening, and I feel really lucky that this woman, who I don't know that well, like I met her on my sister in law's hen do and I've met her at a couple of like big parties. But she, I had her number by this point and I, so this happened, I was on my own in the house as well, there was no one with me, and then I went to the toilet, and it was literally just pouring, it was a waterfall coming out of me. And I just phoned her and luckily she picked up and she just talked to me and she just made me feel really calm. And you know, she, she knows like, it's absolutely her profession so I felt safe, much safer after I'd spoken to her and she was like, if you feel able to, if it slows, you know, if it doesn't slow down, call an ambulance, but if you able to go to, go to the hospital, and go to the walk-in and she like, I think she phoned St Thomas's and found out what was going on for their team. And, sorry, could you still hear me then?
Speaker 1
Yeah, I can. I can hear you. Yeah.
Speaker 2
And, so yeah, I'm, yeah, it was really frightening but she definitely. I think, um, coming from a family of medics I feel very lucky to have people that I can phone that I feel like know what they're talking about. So can talk me down, basically, yeah.
Speaker 1
Yeah. Um, how do you feel about the whole experience now? I mean, you're, it's, it's not actually that far on, is it? But like, how do you feel about it?
Speaker 2
Um, I suppose, yeah, I feel like it really opened my eyes to what women go through, like, because I talked quite openly about it with people. So then, once you do, you realise pretty much everyone's got a story, and it's unbelievable, and we kind of do it in silence. And, whether it's really hard, like, really difficult stories of getting pregnant, conceiving, or having numerous or just one miscarriage, or whatever it is, I think, it's just made me respect women even more and what our bodies have to do. And, yeah, it's not, of course, because of the patriarchy, it's not really talked about. Um, so yeah, my feeling is more of a global one, rather than a personal one, I think, because I do feel like very, very lucky in terms of my experience of pregnancies. I think I still feel incredibly positive and lucky about my experience of pregnancies, and babies, and labor, and all of that stuff is, you know, really positive, but who knows how I'd feel if I hadn't been able to then had a, have another baby afterwards, I think that would, I'd feel very differently. If that had been my last experience, you know.
Speaker 1
And is there anything else you'd like to share about, about your experience?
Speaker 2
Um, I don't think so. And I, you know, I hate to be, I don't want to be critical of the NHS, because it's obviously amazing that you can rock up at any time and not have to pay any money and be seen by these people. But it was just this thing of feeling like, I instantly fell through the cracks once, once I was having a miscarriage it's like, you must have this all the time. Why is there not a better, more linked up procedure? And you know, you look, you, you look up online, I'm really glad for the internet as well, because you obviously look up online, and yeah it's not very common to have this but retained product is definitely a thing. So to not have a more, I don't know. I think, and I think this and also our, it seems like it's much more common after the medicated evac thing, so why they don't scan you just as protocol to check that everything's healthy and gone afterwards I don't know, well I'm sure it's financial reasons. And I also was talking to my, this woman, this woman who kind of supported me through it, who's an obs and gynae specialist in Cheltenham. It's that, it also feels like such a lottery of where you are, like how the department, how well the department works and all of that. So yeah, my feeling is just, it would be great wouldn't it if somehow, I think it must be, the other thing I think, thank God it happened then not in these times, like, in fact I was. Did you hear on radio four, they do so much, I feel like they do, once you've had a miscarriage I suppose you're kind of ultra-aware, but woman's hour had a thing about miscarriages in, since COVID on...
Speaker 1
No I haven't heard it no, I'll check it out on...
Yeah, last week and there was a woman who had a very similar kind of experience to me, in that she'd had the medical evac and it obviously hadn't worked and, but having to do all completely on her own and having to have the scan to find out the baby wasn't, didn't have a heartbeat, you know, all of that on your own. I was saying God a year later it would have just been such a different story. Anyway, that's kind of a bit hard I suppose. Yeah.
Speaker 1
Well, thank you very, very much Elle for talking to me about your experience.
Speaker 2
It's a pleasure.
Speaker 1
I'm really sorry that you went through all that, gosh.
Speaker 2
Yeah, it was horrible, but I definitely feel like, I feel lucky still, you know.
Speaker 1
Um, okay, so I'll stop recording there. So, can I see your face?
Speaker 2
Haha, yeah.
Speaker 1
It's just, was worrying about shuffling with...
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah, sorry I'll just...
Speaker 1
Well anyway, I'll edit at the end. But it's, um, it was, it was really strange to like, hear you talking about all that and not be able to see you.
Speaker 2
Sorry.
Speaker 1
Oh, no, no, don't apologise. Don't apologise. Thank you. It was a really great interview and I'm just... God like...
Speaker 2
Yeah it's mental.
Speaker 1
What a thing, what a thing to go through.
Speaker 2
Yeah. But oh, maybe, I didn't say this, but um, it made me realise just how resilient our bodies are really. And our minds. The resilience of humans always astounds me, I think. Yeah, so that's positive, isn't it?
Speaker 1
It is positive, and like, thank goodness, you had so many people around you with so much knowledge, actually.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah.Yeah, in fact, every time we've had, like, the need for the NHS, I felt like, that's only been part of our care, like, a massive part has been having people around us that know what's going on and so they can either push and advocate for you or explain around it and stuff. So I always think, God, it must be really hard if you don't have that support. Wow, this must be heavy, heavy, heavy work for you, Claire.
Speaker 1
Yeah, it's starting to stack up actually, I've got to say, I'm having to do sort of a bit of self care in between
Speaker 2
That's right, because you're absorbing it all, and that's a massive toll. How many interviews are you doing?
Speaker 1
Um, I've, you're my fourth or fifth now, I'm trying to get up to about 10 at this point. And then, um... Originally, we were trying to do them, in that it would be kind of like, almost like a questionnaire or a way of self recording. But without a kind of stimulus.
Speaker 2
It's quite hard, isn't it.
Speaker 1
That's very hard. And the few people I kind of sent it to, I wasn't getting responses and I just, it was my instinct that actually, you know, you need to, this is something that needs to be done. It's human, it's too difficult. There's too much of a barrier anyway to want to talk about it and to have to sit down and like,
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1
So that's why I'm doing them face to face now. But I think, and I think once we are able to put them on the site, or once, I mean, eventually, the hope is that we are able to share a digital version of the show [COLD]. And then it's there as an opportunity for people to then, in response to seeing the work, to be able to share their story, and that feels like a kind of a fair exchange.
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1
But just trying to, you know, ask people to, to tell us their story without that or without kind of an interaction. Yeah that bit hasn't really, isn't working. So hence, hence this. And I think that's, you know, that feels fair enough. It's such a big thing to share. Like...
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think that was one of my saving graces though. I just decided from the beginning just to tell people, you know, the talking was definitely the best therapy.
Speaker 1
Yeah. Well, and I think there's so many, I mean, anyway, there's so much stigma about us being able to talk about our bodies and our bodily function. Like the baggage around, you know, deification of motherhood over the last...
Speaker 2
I'm infertile, yeah, there's something wrong with my systems. Yeah...
Speaker 1
Yeah. So then you're like a failure too, so there's just so many things in the way of being able to talk really about it, so, brilliant that you are able to talk about it and I'm sure that's helped other people. As you said, like other people have shared their experiences with you, but
Speaker 2
Do you need more people? I obviously know loads of people now that...
Speaker 1
If you do that'd be, and you think they might be willing to talk to me that would be great. And you know, it's all, there's so many permutations of this isn't there, it's like no one's got the same story. You know, in our story, there's also, and you'll know this from talking to Jen you know, we've got a miscarriage and a termination for medical reasons. But it has its other own pile of shame and baggage stuck around it so...
Speaker 2
Oh god. I'd actually forgotten that bit, that part of your story.
Speaker 1
So but I'm just trying to, like you have, I'm just trying to talk about it because if we don't talk about it, we, people are just like suffering in silence. And then you know, politically as well, like particularly with the termination for medical reasons you know, if you're not, even though that was so traumatic for us, and you know, still massive scar, like, but if we don't talk about it, then the kind of whole pro-life movement just gathers even more, momentum and it's just... Yeah, so it feels, I feel kind of a bit responsible really like...
Speaker 2
Oh, well, well done. Amazing. Yeah, listen, I'll talk to some of my friends and see if they want to
Speaker 1
Thank you Elle, that would be great. That's really helpful and thank you so much talking to me, you were, you were a great subject and I'm really sorry, what a fucking horrible thing!
Speaker 2
I know, I'm luckily quite like un-squeamish about gross stuff, so like the chunks coming out of me bit was like, woah, woah.
Speaker 1
Yeah, I thought it showed great self-possession to go like, I need to take this with me.
Speaker 2
I was like, I am so hardcore. I just dilated to four centimeters while my kids are upstairs. It's not good is it? Oh God. Yeah, so anyway, there we go. Here's the bubs.
Speaker 1
Oh, and look at her, amazing. It's a miracle that they get here isn't it really?
Speaker 2
I know, I think that's, I really felt I was, I really felt that like about that... Yeah, it's good, isn't it? It makes you, I think I took the boys so for granted, their health and their, you know, well being and I've definitely like been like, just like, oh my god at her. She came out and she was fine. And yeah. It's all good. Cool.