Hamish and Jenny
Speaker 1
So I've got a series of questions.
Speaker 2
Okay
Speaker 1
That I'll work through and it may be I don't need to ask them all, because you might just automatically answer them as you tell me your story. But my first question is, what were your life circumstances when you became pregnant with the pregnancy that you then lost?
Speaker 2
So that was, we were living in Brighton. We'd been living there for about, at that point, it means we'd met in Australia, and we'd moved down to Brighton. And I think we'd probably been there for about nine years. And then we were, you know, I think it just naturally gets to that point, don't you, where you either we weren't all out for having a baby but we were certainly open to the idea of having a baby. And it felt like our lives were at a place and we were ready to be parents. So that's, that's pretty much where we were and I don't think, I don't think we've really had a conversation about it as such, but I think we could both see that we were heading in that direction, and both quite excited about what that would bring. Um, and you know, the first, the first time you just even start opening your heart up to having a child, it's, you know, it's quite an exciting place to be. So I think, you know, we'd been in Brighton, we'd done the partying and our first careers and all that kind of thing. Um, so yeah, and then we, I think, like I said, I think we were just naturally ready at that point, to think about kids.
Speaker 1
And, and how did you feel about the pregnancy?
Speaker 2
I felt really excited about it. Because at that point, I'd been an auntie to Meg, for how long would it have been, four years, my sister had just had Bonnie. So our lives, because we lived in Brighton with them and we had a group of friends. Most people, like it naturally happens, most people were starting to have children. So you know, our lives were already around children and hanging out with them, and you know, us all as a group of people moving towards that next stage of our lives. So yeah, it felt, it felt really great to be, to be pregnant. And, you know, just so excited because it's the first time all of that is happening. So yeah, a lot of excitement a lot of, oh my goodness, I'm pregnant, in a way that you don't really get to experience that if you, if you know, if you do go on to have other pregnancies and just yeah, just full of wonder and excitement and wondering where it would lead us. So yeah, there was, there was a lot of happiness.
Speaker 1
And then how, so how did you find out that there was a problem with the pregnancy?
Speaker 2
I can't, to be honest, I can't actually remember the defining moments. But I do remember that around, probably around two months, I started bleeding when I was pregnant with Hamish. And I had at that point, I was going through the NHS system of midwifery. And, you know, I just, for the first yeah, for the first few months, I'd been going through the NHS midwifery. And then I switched to having a private midwife who was absolutely amazing. And, you know, she was saying, there could be lots and lots of reasons why you're bleeding and it's not necessarily anything to be alarmed about, but obviously, we need to monitor it. And what happened is, over the months, is that the bleeding never got any lighter, although the baby was fine and Hamish was kicking about, and his heart rate was fine. But you know, it's so difficult when it's your first pregnancy because you don't, you don't know what another pregnancy is like. But what I did know is that my sister hadn't had that experience in her pregnancies. My mum hadn't had that experience in her pregnancies. So although I was carrying on, and it was fine. And I wasn't overly concerned about it in the early days, the longer time gone, got on, and the heavier the bleeding became. I knew, you know, I knew in the back of, you know if I was being really honest with myself, I knew that something wasn't right. But, you know, like I said that, I had the scans, and he was, you know, he was fine and he was growing. So there wasn't anything that's really caused me alarm apart from the bleeding and like I said, I knew that that wasn't, you know for my family circumstances and for my family history of health and pregnancy, that probably wasn't quite right. But you know, you just have to keep going, don't you, you have to keep with it and just see where it takes you, I think.
Speaker 1
So then what happened?
Speaker 2
So, around, it must have been around, gosh, I don't know, probably, probably around 18 weeks of my pregnancy, the bleeding became really heavy. And that's when my midwife got quite concerned and she said, I think you actually need to rest and not move particularly and see what happens with the baby. And I was monitored constantly in regards to Hamish's heartbeat and movements and so on. But about four days before I lost him, I was in bed and I remember bleeding really heavily and then suddenly this, you know, it started off as a niggle, but it, it was a real pain and, and I had that for probably a couple of days and like I said, the midwife was still monitoring me, my sister was coming round and, but then I thought this isn't right, you know, if I'm having to not really move and. I think probably what they thought is that the baby would come early, you know, looking back now I'm, you know, older and have been through other pregnancies, I can see that probably what was needed was rest to try and sustain that pregnancy and Hamish for as long as we possibly could. And sorry, I did have, I did have scans which showed that the placenta was really low lying which is why my midwife said, you know, we need to, you need to rest, you need to really take things slowly, not move around too much and just, you know, allow your placenta and the baby to, you know, get as much as it can, as Hamish can from you. So, but I had, like I said, I just knew that that wasn't right, and then the pain really became so intense. And to be honest, Claire, like I think grief does a really weird thing to you. So I can't you know at that, at that point onwards things start becoming a bit, a bit blurry and a bit dreamlike. But I think maybe my sister phoned the midwife and she said, look you probably need to get sent to the maternity ward in Brighton. So then we went to Brighton, I was in absolute agony. I mean, again, with pregnancies that are a bit more straightforward, you learn that it's, it's labor and it's pain with a purpose. But I honestly don't think the penny had dropped for me at that point. And my sister managed to get me to Brighton maternity ward and I remember being wheeled into a wheelchair, put in a wheelchair and wheeled up to the maternity ward because at that point, I really couldn't walk. And then going into a labor suite. And it was really, I mean, again, I actually don't know the time, it all just became a bit, it all just, it's all just become a bit of a blur. But I think I, I think I had some pain relief. It wasn't an epidural, but I had some quite significant pain relief. And then I remember just this thought coming to my mind going, oh my gosh, I'm in labor, I'm having the baby. I'm having Hamish. And, you know, until that point, it just hadn't occurred to me that I was in labor, or I suppose, because I've been bleeding for so long that you kind of got used to living with that. But there was never a real level of pain with it. Whereas the pain I'd experienced the last four days, which then intensified on the third day, which then became absolutely excruciating on the second or third day towards having him. That's when I started thinking, you know that there's something that's really not right here. And then as soon as I, yeah, as soon as I got to the labor ward, it all just happens so quickly. Um, but I do remember that distinct feeling of going, I'm in labor, I'm going to have a baby, I'm going to have Hamish. And then after that, he was born pretty quickly from what I remember. But he was, you know, he, by that point, he was, he'd passed away. So yeah, so, so he was born and, and, you know, it was very clear that he, that he wasn't alive. And again, I, I don't really remember too much after that. I remember being in the bed with him. And you know that they were amazing. They were, they were amazing on the ward in so much as, you know, that they allowed, Gareth was there. Because he, I think he was working at the time my sister took me to the labor ward, and she was there with me when he was born. And then Gareth came sometime later. And, you know, we spent some time with him. And we had, we had his hands and feet cast, which was really lovely and we have some photos. But it was just, it was just so shocking, I think is the word that I had. It was just so shocking. And I, I don't even, I mean, I did feel grief, I felt like a huge part of me had gone but I think I was in shock first for a fair while afterwards. The grief came afterwards, but the shock initially just, you know, it just absolutely engulfed me. And then when you start kind of coming through that and realising, you know, what, what it is you've been through, I think that's when the grief comes. And you know, that the whole thing it was just, it was just so painful in many different ways. But yeah, so that's, and then I think we spent, I don't think I spent a day in the ward, I think I probably spent six or seven hours at which point he, you know, we spent time with him. And then gosh, I can't remember. I think he went, I think he must have gone to the hospital mortuary and then we went home without a baby in our arms. And I, and again, I don't, I don't remember much after that probably for, I mean, I remember his funeral. But I probably don't remember a lot of two, three months after that time. Um, I remember sitting on the sofa and watching a lot of crap telly. I couldn't tell you what I watched. I, you know, I didn't get dressed. I didn't wash my hair or, you know, all the kinds of things that group grief does that can just completely, just completely takes over. Day was night, night was day. I couldn't tell you who was there, I know my mum, obviously my mum came down, my sister was there, but I can't tell you what I did day to day, I have not got a clue. So yeah, that was, that was... And it's interesting because slowly you start putting one foot in front of the other. I mean, I remember a time when me and Gareth started having, you know, a conversation about it, which turned into an argument. And there's, there's only very distinct points that I remember, like, the thought in my head going, I'm in labor, we're going to, we're going to have a baby, we're going to have Hamish. I remember his face when he was born and his body. And I remember what he looked like. I mean, that's, you know, that, that stuff is as clear, as clear as day. I do remember getting home and sitting on the sofa for a lot of the time. I remember, yeah, starting to have an argument with Gareth and us both just saying, you know, we can't do that, we cannot do this, we cannot start arguing and falling out over, you know, over our baby, it's just, it would, you know, it just, it was, and we knew that if we started going down that road, it would become very, very destructive, for both of us. So, you know, we, we made a pact to just talk about it, to cry to, you know, to give the grief the time it needed and, and I think once we started having that conversation, it was very cathartic. And we, you know, just allowed each other the time we needed to fall apart and to grieve and to, and to do all of those things that we needed to do. And, you know, I think I'm quite, I'm quite aware that we had to grieve, we had to allow ourselves that time, because if you rush that stuff, that's really when things become really difficult, and just really destructive. And, you know, for me, there was a point of, if we do that, that is so disrespectful to his memory. So, you know, we were very careful to make sure we managed, looking after ourselves, looking after our grief, looking after the memory of Hamish. And that was really difficult, because it would be so much easier to just put your head in the sand and to, or to, you know, rush things and to move forward and to push it, push it deep. But I, you know, I think we both knew, but I really knew that if we were going to have any chance of survival as a, you know, as friends, as a relationship, if we were going to have any chance of going on to be a family that we had to take our time. And we did. And that was, you know, that was, it was actually in some ways, it was quite a special time to drop out of life for a bit and, you know, look after ourselves and to look after that memory. It wasn't easy. Like I said, I think it would have been much easier to have just carried on. But I don't think that was for us. I knew that wasn't going to work.
Speaker 1
Um, you possibly already answered this, but what were the emotional challenges you faced as a result of this experience?
Speaker 2
I think the biggest emotional challenge was, like I said, just giving ourselves the time that we needed to recover. And I knew, like we had a lovely funeral for Hamish, which, you know, I really, really wanted to do. That was so important to me, like I said, I mean for both of us, because we knew that if we, like i said, if we stood half a chance of recovering physically and mentally and emotionally, we had to know that we did everything for our son. And, you know, for us that was to settle his soul and to be as respectful as we could about, you know, making sure, making sure that we took care of him because, I think when you lose a child like that, there is nothing else you can do apart from make sure that you've been, you acted like a parent, and that is to go through the pain and make sure that you've taken care of them for their entire time that they're with you. And so, you know, so we had a lovely, lovely funeral for him which again was, was amazing and was really part of the healing process. You know, on one hand, if I could have run for the hills and just stuck my head in the sand. That would have been far the easiest thing to do in the, you know, in the short term, but in the long term. I knew I had to go through the pain. I knew how to cry, I knew I had to fall apart, and knew me and Gareth had to talk. And so that was, that was a really, you know, that was a really difficult emotion. But you know, I don't think you'll ever experience, or for me personally, I lost my father when I was quite young, and the grief of losing a child. That, that was painful, but I don't think I'll go through anything as painful as losing a child. And I think if you can, I think because I went through that, there was a real strong sense in myself that I will survive this, it's going to hurt, it's going to really, really hurt, but I will survive it, we will survive it, we will get through it and we will, we will move to a better place but only if we were prepared to, you know, do the work and make sure that we take care of Hamish's memory. Because if something, if anything keeps on dragging gets back to that dark, destructive place, I think it would be ourselves. And I, you know, although that was really difficult, and very painful, it's set me on the path to know that I would be okay. I just needed to give myself time to heal. And so I, I never had any feelings that, that my next pregnancies, if I was fortunate enough to be pregnant, would be anything, you know, would result in the same way as losing Hamish. Because, again, for me, it was about, you know, I wanted, I wanted to allow Hamish to be that experience, and for my subsequent, and you know to honor that, and for everything that he gave me in that, and to feel very proud of that experience that I had. Because it was, it was only by sort of thinking about it that way that I knew that I'd be able to go on and, you know, be, be really excited about having other pregnancies and, and feel really happy and positive about that. And I knew that I couldn't just project, what I had with Hamish onto subsequent pregnancies or subsequent children, because, Hamish was Hamish, and that was one experience, although like I said, it was just absolutely engulfing, the grief and pain. But as the years have gone on, and I've been able to reflect on it more and learn from it more, you know, I'm very, I'm very thankful to him for that. And, and I think it's, it's quite difficult. I find it quite difficult to articulate what that, what that thankfulness is about, but I feel really proud of that experience. And I think it's, I think it's really kind of opens up... I think when you go through something that difficult, it kind of opens you up, it allows you to be vulnerable, it allows you to, to experience grief in a way that possibly you never would have done without that experience. And rather than seeing that as something that's a place that you would not want to go to, and I would never want to go to that place, you know, I feel very sad that I only had Hamish for a very short time. But that's not to say that everything was lost when I lost him. So, yeah, I, there's a whole range of emotions that come with it. It's, it's such a broad spectrum. It's not just about grief and pain and misery. For me. For me, there was some really beautiful things that came out of it.
Speaker 1
That's really inspiring to hear you say that. Um, well,
Speaker 2
I mean, like I said, it's, it's, it's taken time, it's only because I, I didn't rush it. I didn't rush any of that stuff. I didn't rush to get dressed in the morning, to tell everyone that I was feeling okay. I didn't, you know, rush, not allow myself to sit on the TV, you know, sit on the sofa, in my dirty pyjamas with messy hair and watch a copious amount of shit TV. I didn't rush any of that stuff. I was like, you know, you have to go through this. You have to allow yourself to feel all of it. Because if you don't, it will come back and it will bite you on the arse really hard. And I said, you know, I don't want to do that. I don't want to do that to his memory. I don't want to do that to everything he gave us, because I think that would just be really un-honourable to who, you know, to his memory. So, but it's not easy. And I know that everybody, you know, but then there's still times were on his anniversary each year, I'm always very reflective. And you know, it still hurts, God, it still hurts. But time has, I think it taught me a lot about myself, it taught me a lot about how to heal and to be kind to yourself. And, but you know, the pain never goes away. It just, you do, I think a year on you, you just take different things from it. And so I think, you know, you'll always be that child's mother, I will always be Hamish's mother, I'll always have three children. It's just one of them isn't here right now.
Speaker 1
How long has it been now since Hamish died?
Speaker 2
I mean, let's just talk about his memory, every year we say this. Obviously, year on year he gets older, his memory gets older, but he would have been, he would have been 14. So I would have had two teenage boys now. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing. But yeah, he would have been, he would have been 14, you know, a long, a long time has passed between those memories and, and where I am today. But like I said, I think it just, I think it, I've never put it in a box and said, right, that's that that's it, that's that experience over. But I have tried to move from, on from it. And, you know, it's like when I lost my dad as well, yeah, I feel, you do feel a level of responsibility to those souls to go on and live your life in a way that you think they'd be proud. And, you know, you'd like them to, if they were here, to see that you are living a life as joyfully and as kindly and as respectfully and as lovingly as you can. So you know that, and that, that's all I hope for which I think is why I wanted to do the work in terms of taking care of myself and trying to be as good as I could be about losing my son. Because, like I, you know, like I said, to be anything else would have just been a complete waste. And it would have been really un-honourable to his memory for me.
Speaker 1
You mentioned that you were, I mean, if I'm hearing this correctly, that with your subsequent successful pregnancies and two children, that you were able to kind of go through those pregnancies without too much kind of fear and anxiety of the same thing happening again.
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think probably with Eli, because Eli was my son that was born after Hamish. I think a lot of people around me, my, my friends and my family, well probably my closest friends and G, there was a level of anxiety for them. And, you know, had an amazing midwife who I was able to talk a lot of my stuff through with and I did have anxiety, but I wouldn't say it was particularly heightened, I, I like I said, I think there was two things, I knew that I had to approach any subsequent pregnancies with just, just allowing them to be separate to my pregnancy with Hamish. And I found that quite easy to do. Um, because, you know, by that point, I'd, I'd spent a lot of time just thinking about what I wanted those pregnancies to be and how I would take care of myself physically and emotionally and mentally. So I was in a good place to, to have my son and yeah, I didn't feel really any anxiety with him before it. You know, looking back I think my pregnancy with Eli felt very different. Not in terms of how I felt about it or how I felt in terms of being pregnant again or the love that I had for Eli, but because I, with Eli had a pretty much straightforward pregnancy, it's not until you experience that that you're able to have a comparison to look at the pregnancy you know with Hamish and go you know, had that probably been my second or third pregnancy I maybe would have been a bit more mindful or a bit more insightful about the fact that, you know, that pregnancy probably wasn't going to run full term with Hamish but, you know, he was my first baby, my first pregnancy. So I didn't know that really. And again, it's not, it's not something that you can put into words, but I think there's just, there was just that feeling with Eli, but it was going to be okay, it was going to work out. And the same with Heidi, I had absolutely no anxiety about being pregnant with her whatsoever. And again, I had a really straightforward pregnancy and I didn't want to spend nine months worrying that I was going to lose either of them, because nine months is a long time to be really stressed and anxious. And I didn't want to do that. And I know for some people that is their reality and, and, you know, everybody's different. And I don't judge that at all, I think it's very difficult to not have any kind of anxiety about losing your baby once you've lost a baby. So I think there was some level there, but, but like I said, the both pregnancies felt very different from Hamish, I knew it was going to be okay. In the same way that I had that inner feeling after I lost Hamish that I knew if I gave myself time I'd be okay. So, I'm quite, I'm quite a believer in just maybe going inwards sometimes and just listening to yourself, and just having to, you know, have faith and believing that it's going to be alright. And it was, you know, with Eli and Heidi, I've got two wonderful children. So I'm very lucky.
Speaker 1
How do you feel about the experience now?
Speaker 2
I feel, like I said before, I feel very grateful for the experience, because I don't, I don't think it's very often in our lives that we get to really live on the knife edge of life. And, and I think when you experience grief for child, it is that. I think when you are in labor, it is that. I think when you give birth to a child, it is that. You are absolutely at your most vulnerable. And that can either bring intense joy, or it can bring intense grief, and there's a lot that runs in the middle. And, yeah, like I said, I just don't think you'd get many opportunities in life to get to that level of vulnerability and openness and really experience life in its absolute rawest form, or death in its rawest form. And, Hamish opened me up to that. So those experiences and so that level of feeling that I think would be quite difficult to, to get in any other way. So you know, although that's quite dark to lose a child and to see, and to see death in that way and to experience it so physically, I feel quite grateful for the fact that he, you know, it's probably the first time in my life that I ever felt that level of vulnerability and openness and, and so I'm not sure I would have discovered those parts of myself, had I not lost him. So you know, that for me, which is why I said, I feel quite grateful that, that, for me, was like hugely powerful in understanding myself and learning some more about myself that I would never, ever have been exposed to before. So I think that's a really powerful thing that he allowed me to, he allowed me to experience. And yeah, and I feel really grateful for that, because I'm not sure I would've got that in any other way.
Speaker 1
Um, is there anything else that you'd like to share about Hamish or your experience of having and losing him?
Speaker 2
I don't think so. I don't think so. I'm, I'm just mindful that there will be some men and women that are probably listening to this, who may be, you know, have lost children and are not quite sure what is the way out of those feelings and, and I feel, I feel a really big responsibility about talking about it. And I'm just very aware that my experience and my feelings and the way I approach things is not going to be how everybody else may do that. But I, but I just think that you just have to remember you can survive this and you just got to talk and allow yourself a time to heal and recover. And there doesn't have to be a time limit on that, there's no right or wrong way of doing this, right or wrong way of doing it, you just have to, you just have to move through the grief. And you will come out the other side, it might just take quite a long time, but you will get there. And it's, you know, it's, it can be a really long, painful process. But it is a process because it's grief, and you've just got to move for it. But don't expect too much of yourself, don't be, you know, just got to be kind to yourself. And, you know, put one foot in front of the other when you feel like it. And if not sit on the sofa, eat chocolate and watch some really crap TV. And allow that day to pass, and allow that morning to pass to go in tonight. And that night to go into morning. And at some point, the hours will start making sense again, and you will find a reason to get dressed. But you don't have to rush any of that stuff.
Speaker 1
Thank you very much, Jenny,
Speaker 2
It's a pleasure. It's actually really nice to talk about it again. Because you know, you know, like with me and you, I think when you lose them, the first few years after that, the first year, the first couple of years after that. It's so engulfing isn't it, it just takes over. And so it should because you've lost a child. But as the years go on, I think it's like any grief you, you know, the anniversaries come and go. And I don't know, I think sometimes you don't want to vocalise it as much as you did in those early years because you think that people should... You know I don't think anybody would judge it, but you wonder if you're, you know, still talking about it or, and it is really important to still talk about it to him. But I'm now aware I've spoken about it to other people such as yourself. But I'm also aware that I have people in my life now that don't know about Hamish. And maybe as, you know, one or two years have turned into seven or eight or turned into 10 or 12 or 14 that, you know, when do you start that conversation with somebody about, oh, 14 years ago, I lost my first son? Because when we met, you know, we were all having children, weren't we, you, you very much go through that time together when you're having babies. But you know, sometimes I wonder how I start that conversation with someone I've just met when that experience was 14 years ago. And the stage that I'm at in my life now, most of the people I meet have gone through having children and coming through different parts. So there's never really an opportunity to sit down and go, oh, you know, and another part of me is that I was the mother to Hamish. Well, I still am a mother to Hamish, but, you know, the opportunities for those conversations don't really come up very readily. So it's like, so it's really nice to have an opportunity to sit down and talk about it, in a way that, you know, if you meet someone new, you're not just going to sit down for cuppa and go oh, by the way, can we have a conversation about Hamish, please? You know, because you don't want to put them in a really difficult position, do you? What are they supposed to say to that? Whereas when you're talking to someone else who's lost a child, you can, you know, me and you we can talk about that stuff because it's still there in a way that you can't, well, of course you can, but I just, it doesn't feel comfortable for me to put the other person in that, in that, you know, situation where they feel they need to empathise or say something, or, you know, I mean, the one time I do still find it hard is when it's Hamish's anniversary. And we'll always go out to the, you know, to the cherry blossom tree and light a candle. And then you have to go to work, right? Because you, it's 14 years later and you need to take your children to school or do whatever it is you need to do that day. But you know, part of me is thinking, I'm just carrying on but actually today is Hamish's anniversary, and I want to, I want to do that, or do whatever I want to do about that. I don't really want to be having conversations about, I don't know, whatever it is, nits at school when you're thinking it's your son's anniversary. So, you know, sometimes I find that a bit difficult but you know, it's a day and then you just move on to the next day don't you. Anyway, how many more people are you speaking to?
Speaker 1
So I've, you're my third interview, and I've got another two booked in over the next couple of days. And then I've got a few more contacts that I'm trying to reach. Because ideally, I'd like to speak to about, I think at this point, it would be great if I could speak to 10 people I think.
Speaker 2
Yeah. A whole range of feelings and...
Speaker 1
Yeah, and, and experiences as well, you know.
Speaker 2
And also, the thing is we were able to have children like, I was really aware when I was talking, that this, people are going to watch this who are, well you know listen to this, who have actually lost children and have never been able to have children. I mean, Gods.
Speaker 1
Yeah
Speaker 2
You know what I didn't want to, you know, what, you know, what have you cut it, but, you know, I feel really grateful for the fact that I've been able to go on and have children, not that they replace Hamish, but I've been able to have an experience of having children in my life in a way that other people won't get to have that experience that that, you know, how do you start moving on from that? I don't know, because that hasn't been my experience. But that's, you know, I don't want to do that like, well there's always somebody else who's got a harder story, because I think that's slightly patronising. I do think it's, you know, maybe losing a baby but having children in your life is a very, very different experience to losing a baby, or babies and not having children in your life. But you know, anyway.
Speaker 1
That's really good. Oh, well, thank you so, so much, Jen. It was just really like, it was a real privilege for me to hear your story. And just like how well you've how, what good care you've taken of yourself. And of Hamish's memory, that's really inspiring, actually.
Speaker 2
Thank you. I spent a lot of money on therapy and acupuncture from what I remember. Of the little I did remember of about a three month period, therapy and acupuncture and crap TV were probably my way forward. Anyway, darling, we'll be able to catch up soon.
Speaker 1
I know. Thank you so much.