Deborah's story
Speaker 1
Great. And so, Deborah, what were your life circumstances when you found out that you were pregnant with this pregnancy?
Speaker 2
Well, I was just, just before my 27th birthday. The partner I was with, actually we hadn't been together all that long at the time. We, we'd been a couple for about eight months, but we'd been friends for a couple years before that. And ironically, we'd been, we'd been not being, being very careful. And ironically, we'd had a bit of a chat about not being very careful, and then literally a week later found out that I was expecting. At the time he was finished, he, because he'd gone back to uni as a mature student, so he was doing his degree. And I was working, so I was kind of the major breadwinner. But obviously, you know, I mean, we decided we were obviously going to keep the baby and everything because we were both at that sort of age. And because we kind of knew each other, although we hadn't been a couple for that long, because we'd known each other for longer, you know, it felt fine. So yeah, that was kind of the circumstances. So it wasn't, it was, it was accidental, but it was a happy accident, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1
And how did you feel about the pregnancy?
Speaker 2
Um, terrified initially. Yeah, well, I suppose it was, it was a shock, you know, because we weren't expecting it. Although we should have been really because obviously, you know, but, but then we were really happy about it. Yeah. You know, after, after the initial kind of surprise, and like, oh my God, this is happening. Because we were the first people in our group of friends to be in that position. So it was, I did have a couple of school friends, no I had a school friend who had just discovered she was, my best friend from school had just discovered she was pregnant. So that was really nice. Um, I had an old friend, another old close friend from school who'd had children a few years earlier, because she got married very young. So, but in our kind of circle of friends we mainly went around with, we were the first ones if you like. So it was a bit kind of like strange, you know, like being in that position. We suddenly, although we were in our 20s, we suddenly felt a lot more grown up than everyone else. But no, we weren't, we were happy about it, we were. Yeah.
Speaker 1
And so how did you find out that there was a problem with the pregnancy?
Speaker 2
Not until the 20 week scan, because in those days, there weren't any 12 week scans like there are now. So we, I had no idea obviously, that I, I mean you don't feel a lot of movement anyway, prior to 20 weeks, so you wouldn't know. And I had no idea even if I had felt any movement, what I should have been feeling because it was my first baby. So we went bowling into the 20 week scan, expecting everything to be fine. Um, I weirdly, I had actually at about 10 weeks, I did have a very heavy bleed. And we'd gone to accident and emergency and they had done a quick scan there just to see if anything was, and everything, you know, there was still a baby in there. In retrospect, they did wonder whether I might have been carrying twins and maybe lost one and not lost the other, I don't know, you know, this is all hindsight that they'd said that retrospectively, but apart from that, there'd been nothing else in the pregnancy to indicate anything. And the baby had appeared okay on that 10 week scan. But of course at that size, they're tiny, and you can't really spot the abnormalities. That's obviously why you have an abnormality scan at 20 weeks instead. So at 20 weeks, we went for the scan. And they couldn't get her to, they couldn't see all the bits they needed because they couldn't get her to move into the positions they needed. They tried for ages and sent us off for a walk and all sorts and in the end, it was like you need to come back the next day because there's certain things we can't see. And we were a bit, I was, I just started then having a horrible feeling something was wrong. And Simon, that was my, he's my ex now but he wasn't at the time, he obviously was trying to reassure me although he had a funny feeling too. Because you could just tell from their faces, their reaction, something wasn't quite right. We went back the next day and that's when they realised there were obviously some abnormalities and whatnot. And, and then obviously they needed to refer us on to specialist treatment at Queen Charlotte's in Roehampton instead. So that was from there. So it was at 20 weeks it came as quite a shock. Yeah.
Speaker 1
And so what happened next?
Speaker 2
Um, well next we had to go to, we were referred because they couldn't, the sonographers at Epson where I was having the scan because that's, that was our hospital at the time, they didn't have the... sorry, that's the, one of the cats is meowing and the dogs barking, sorry about that, she's a busy body with the cats she really is. Anyway, we were referred to Queen Charlotte's in Roehampton for, because they, there wasn't anything obvious it was, it appeared that there were limb abnormalities and they didn't know what else. So we were referred to, he was actually a really nice consultant, he was called Professor Fisk, and he actually ended up being in a couple of documentaries subsequently, over the years. And I was like, oh my goodness me, he was my doctor! He was a lovely, lovely man, he was like a real expert in kind of fetal abnormalities and stuff like that, because I suppose this would be 26 years ago, so they didn't know as much now as they know now even, you know, as much then. And so he had a better scanner, so I was referred to better scanning by him, still couldn't really identify on the scan, what potentially was the problem. So I had to consent to an amniocentesis and have that and then obviously had to wait. Oh, gosh, it's, I mean, the whole process of trying to diagnose what was going on, probably took about four or five weeks, because in those days DNA screening wasn't as advanced as it is now or as speedy. And they didn't, you know, at that point, obviously, they, they identified that there was some quite severe limb abnormalities, and that was preventing the baby from moving the way she should, and that was causing her lymphatic system to clog up and back up and that was obviously going to then start impacting on the organs and this, that and the other. So we were told that really, she wouldn't have much of a chance at life really, you know, it wouldn't be very viable if we proceeded although they would have supported me in proceeding with the pregnancy had I wanted to do so. But their advice was that it probably wasn't the best thing to do. You know, and, yeah, so then, obviously, at that point, once, once we'd been through all those various different tests and things, we obviously then had to make that decision that I would have to have a medical termination of pregnancy, which I obviously then had, yeah.
Speaker 1
Gosh, and so that four to five week period where they were trying to figure out what was going on. How, how was that for you?
Speaker 2
Awful, absolutely horrendous, just because you're still pregnant, but you don't know what's going to happen. You know, we didn't for a while. Yeah, there's, there was always this hope that they might find out that it, you know that there was something they could do, or that they'd made a mistake, or, and it was just, but then it's still being pregnant, but knowing that that pregnancy isn't going to continue, or isn't likely to continue. Because even once they'd made the decision, I think it still took, I mean, I'm going to try to think now the timeframe, it still probably took about I would say nearly a week between them making that, you know, giving us that sort of final diagnosis that actually really, you know, that there's not, nothing we can actually do, but we don't know what's wrong, but we can't do anything about it. And then to getting booked in for, for the you know, for the process. So even then, you know, we had a few days where we knew this was going to be the end of it. She was still alive inside me. So that feels awful in that respect. And then yeah, and just it was just yeah, horrible. Just, just really just, yeah, I don't, I don't think I've ever been through anything as awful as that in my life since. Nothing, nothing comes close to how I felt then I don't think, not, not getting divorced. That sounds awful, but not even losing parents. You know, nothing comes close to that. That's, that's definitely, that's, that's definitely the lowest point I think of, you know, probably ever. Yeah, so it wasn't, it wasn't nice. It wasn't nice at all. Yeah. But here I am.
Speaker 1
Do you mind talking to me about what your experience was of the termination for medical reasons?
Speaker 2
Yeah, no, not at all, not at all. I mean, as you know, I'm a midwife anyway, so you know, I wasn't at the time, I wasn't one then, but I am now so you know, no, no. Well, I remember, I mean, I had to go... The awful thing was having to go into the hospital and be kind of taken to a room that was, I think if I remember rightly, it was a side room on the delivery suite, I'm pretty sure it was. Because I think that was, that was fairly awful. You know, that wasn't, that wasn't nice. And then I was given sort of pessaries to get things going, basically, and various medications and stuff. And it, first lot didn't really sort of take effect, because you know, when you're not ready and geared up to go into labour, it takes a lot, a lot to get that process to start going sometimes. Um, so I think if I remember rightly, I'm fairly certain they started a second cycle of, I'm sure they gave me another pessary quite late at night, and back then, they wouldn't let Simon stay with me overnight. So that was fairly horrendous. We now obviously, we let the partners stay. And we have a nice kind of room for them to be in and stuff like that. I was basically in this kind of hospital room, so it was a bit bleak. And I remember that they you know, they were sort of getting, they got Simon to go home. So then you're left on your own, so I remember being in this room on my own and having these awful contractions and just like not being able to have any pain relief, you know, other than paracetamol. It's just like, full blown contractions. I just remember being in agony. And, and I don't know what time it was in the end, it was about like five o'clock ish in the morning. And I remember, like, it just got really, really bad because it was my, I mean like, literally like my waters, obviously, like, were, I suppose I'd dilated enough that sort of like, you know, sort of like the, like my membranes had dropped a bit and everything was about to burst. And so the pressure was unbelievable, and the pain. And I remember at that point, I think I bleeped for them again, you know, like bleeped for them, like the midwives or whatever. And they've done, I'd said that, you know, I really, because I thought I needed the toilet, I had this overwhelming urge to sort of like wee or something, but it wasn't, it was the pressure of everything on my bladder. And I remember they went and got a commode for me. And as I stood over the commode, my waters just broke like a cannon. Which I never experienced with my subsequent labours. So that was quite weird. And then at that point, it was like panic stations, because at that point, then it was like they had to go and ring Simon and get him to come back in and he just made in by the skin of his teeth. So I would say for the majority, the bulk of it, I kind of went through a lot of that on my own, in this side room which wasn't very nice. Whereas we would not do that now, we wouldn't do that now. Things have, and it amazes me how things have changed in just more or less the space of one generation really, in that sense how different things are, you know, I think we're much more kind of compassionate about that now. So anyway, um, so literally, within about less than an hour after those waters broke, she was born. And I remember like, they kind of put a sheet over my knees so I couldn't see what was happening. But I remember like, remember the sensation of her kind of slithering out of you like, because I suppose at that point, she probably would have weighed like maybe a pound and a half maybe, couple of pounds, possibly at the most, you know, so you know, a reasonable size. You can, you can feel them at that size, so I felt that. Obviously they didn't sort of show me initially they kind of whipped her away, so I had no idea. Because that was the other thing back then you didn't have to register the birth, I think until 26 weeks, so we didn't have that whereas now it's 24 weeks. Because obviously, as the technologies for looking after premature babies have improved, they had to sort of make that so that you know, so back then we didn't even have that sort of requirement if you like, and I actually had no idea whether she was alive when she was born and then wasn't or whether she wasn't alive. I don't know. I know nothing about that. Anyway, they just took her straight, took her straight away, in like a little bowl thing. And then they'd asked if we wanted to see her and we'd said yes. So then they brought her back in, kind of like wrapped up in a little white blanket. And obviously we unwrap, because I mean the constant worry was supposing there wasn't anything wrong, supposing we made a mistake you know. That was a constant worry, it was just, it was horrible. Just thinking what if, what if, what if we aborted our baby for no, no good reason. But I mean, you know, her arms and legs were very kind of twisted around and whatnot, you know, so definitely was the right, you know, yeah, you know, her face was absolutely perfect, so that was, you know. And then the weirdest thing of all was when my daughter was born, you know, like, well, so 99, so 94. So like five years later if you like when I had, because obviously then I went on after that to have like Felix a year and a half later, more or less, and then, and then I went on to have the twins, obviously, like three years after that. And as soon as I saw my daughter Maddie, obviously, she was the absolute spitting image of her sister, it was that, the first thing that hit me was like, oh, my God, you know, like, really, really bizarre. You know, that's really strange. But anyway, so, yeah. And so yeah, I suppose we spent about, we probably spent about, not that long really about half an hour I guess maybe. Then they took her away again, then that was it, you know, it's not like it is now. And the only picture that we've got, which, and it's a pretty awful one really, it was like this polaroid that they'd taken, but it was like very clinical, because it was like just her kind of like, completely naked and just like on this sheet, and they gave us this polaroid and it was a bit like, oh, that's it then is it? You know, a bit like, almost like they'd been taking polaroids because there was, they were going to do a post mortem to try and establish what on earth was wrong, because they hadn't been able to diagnose anything from the amniocentesis or anything like that. And obviously, we needed to know if it was something genetic, because obviously that would affect how we went on with our family planning in the future. So yeah, so it was all a bit, yeah, quite clinical, really. And there wasn't really any offering of counseling or support or anything like that afterwards. And there was no, you know, I mean, she obviously just went off to be cremated and done away with with all the other kind of miscarriages and things if you like, I suppose for the hospotal. There wasn't that option, not that, I don't think we probably would have had a funeral or something like that, because, you know, I don't think we would have done that necessarily but there wasn't it, you know, it was yeah, it just wasn't really, because it was, because it was less than 26 weeks, you know, there wasn't that need to register her or do anything, you know. So, yeah, it was kind of, it was just very, very different from how we do things now. Very, very different. It was, it was very hard, very hard at the time, very, very hard. Yeah, it's not something you forget about, you know, for sure. You don't forget about that. And the weird thing was exactly a year, because we had to, we then had to wait, like a good, like six months before we could even sort of try to do anything again, because we had to wait for various different results of various different tests. Because again, you know, DNA stuff was all in its infancy then. So things that probably don't take that long now took a lot longer to come through, test results and all this, that and the other. And you know, absolutely they never found any, there was no recognised syndrome, there was no nothing. It was a complete and total freak of nature. And I mean Professor Fisk was lovely, he was amazing throughout. The antenatal support I had from Queen Charlotte's was fabulous. It was only really when I got to Epson to deliver her that it was kind of a bit subpar. It was a bit like, yeah, you know, wasn't really, yeah. Yeah, so the, but the, the actual antenatal support and the support that we received from Professor Fisk was amazing. He was such a lovely man. He was so kind, he was so compassionate. He was so patient, you know, he was really, he made the experience bearable. You know, he was somebody who could give you the worst news, but in a way, but he made it easy to, not easy to take, but you know what I mean. And, I mean, he was, he did speculate, you know, because obviously, he said, he just said it was one of those things where you really should have had a miscarriage. You know, there was obviously these things wrong, and then obviously, you know, thinking about that bleed, there was always that possibility that you know, I did try and, my body did try to miscarry and perhaps there were two because it was a lot you know, it was a heavy, heavy load. So whether or not there had been two of them there and I'd lost one baby and not the other, who the hell knows. You don't know. You know, no one will know for sure. The only thing that makes me wonder if that was the case is because of how similar that pregnancy felt initially like my twin pregnancy that I then went on to have, but again, you don't know do you, you know? Yeah, so yeah, yeah. But anyway, so that, that was that really so it was, but then exactly... Sorry, I'm rambling a bit aren't I? That must have been very, very hard. No, you're being great. Exactly a year to the day that she was born, was the day that I found out I was expecting Felix, but I did a test and found out Felix was on the way. That was quite sort of strange. That it was exactly a year to the day. Yeah. So. Yeah. So that was, that was that really.
Speaker 1
So I'm wondering, like, what if you, what were the emotional challenges that you faced as a result of that experience?
Speaker 2
Oh, oh, gosh, a huge sense of loss. Huge, huge sense of loss. I'd never expected to feel such an enormous sense of emptiness and loss as I felt. Honestly, it's silly isn't it? I remember we'd got, well not silly... We went to, Simon's mum went away on holiday and she had two elderly cats so she asked us if we'd go and house sit. So I went to house sit with Simon for her. Because it gave us a chance to get out of like, our own four walls, and get away from things a little bit. And I remember like going into her downstairs toilet one evening. And sort of like, pretending I was cradling something in my arms and just crying, because all of a sudden I just felt really empty. Yeah, like imagining how it would have felt and then just feeling really empty. It was very, very, very awful. So that was yeah. And then. Yeah, just, yeah, it was just, it was, I think that was the biggest thing. I think it was just that huge sense of loss, because you obviously have all these expectations of how, you know, you think your life is going to go. Yeah, so that was, it was that, it was just that worrying that you know, feeling like, you know, feeling like you've been a failure that you didn't protect your own baby, you know, that somehow it's your own, it's your fault, that sort of thing. And then obviously, the hard thing when I fell pregnant with Felix was being able to relax into that pregnancy. And kind of enjoy that and not worry that something was going to happen. I actually ended up having they, because again still no 12 week scans, they only had just started to introduce the 12 week scans when I was expecting the twins, which is how we found out we were having twins. But so it was, it was very much in its infancy the 12 week scan. Because when we moved up to Durham, when the twins were 10 months old, a lot of friends I made who had children of similar ages hadn't had a 12 week scan, and they were like, oh what's that? What's that? You know, and then eventually they rolled it out across the country, you know. So again, no 12 weeks scan when I was expecting Felix, so this would have been like March 1995 when we found out we were expecting him. And so, but they did let me have my anomaly scan at about 16 and a half weeks, because from that point, they can like identify pretty much everything. And that was to put my mind at rest, you know, because obviously... And by then now, where are we living? So by then we were living down in Guilford, so it was a different hospital. It was the Royal Surrey that we went to and they were much, it was a bigger hospital, you know, it was like a big university sort of teaching hospital. And they were, they were a lot more kind of clued up about stuff. So anyway, so they agreed to let me have a scan a bit earlier to put my mind at rest and stuff like that, which was nice. So it could relax into it a bit more once that happened. But I remember for the first sort of 16 weeks, it was very hard to kind of like, I didn't want to almost acknowledge him in case I had to let him go, you know? And I do wonder sometimes, I mean, I did have a very difficult labour with him as well, so it was hard to bond with him initially. And I do wonder sometimes if that was partly to do with the fact that I didn't feel that I could for the first sort of, you know, that first like three months almost, I didn't feel like I could bond with him in case and then obviously having a traumatic labour at the end of it as well. You know, kind of like, it was difficult. So it took me, it took me a good few days, you know, before I kind of felt like, you know, he was mine and everything. I was sort of going through the motions a bit for the first few days, you know, putting a bravae face on it and everything and pretending like it was all feeling normal. But, but then eventually it did. Obviously it sort of hit me like a sledgehammer, and I did bond with him, but it took a while, whereas with the twins, it was all very, very, very different experience. That's it. Yeah.
Speaker 1
And, um, how do you feel about the experience now?
Speaker 2
Now? Oh, it's, it's strange, because to say it's been eased by having my children that I've gone on to have, I would say that yeah, I would say that helped, I think, definitely. I know that sounds like that's an awful thing to say really, maybe. But that definitely helped having, having the three that I went on to have helped to deal with that initial loss. I think it would have been, it must be awful, I can't imagine how people cope if that's all that they ever have, if they, all they ever have is loss. I don't know how they get past that, I really don't you know. Yeah, you know, and it's just, we've, we've had some very sad cases at work, you know, where, where we've had women come in who've lost babies, multiple times late on in pregnancies, and they've tried again, and they've tried, and you just think, I don't know how you do, how you do this. I don't know how you do this. Sometimes it feels like, like, when I'm talking about it, sometimes it feels like I'm talking about it and it's happened to somebody else and not to me, in a sense. So, yeah, it is, yeah, I always will, I will always feel as if I am a mother of four in a way. I will always feel like that. And, you know, sometimes I sort of jokingly say to Felix oh, you know, my firstborn, but really, he's not, you know, but then I kind of say that, because he well, you know, it's kind of he, he is and he isn't sort of thing. Yeah, it's just, and it's strange, because I know that obviously if that, if I had had her, if it had worked out with her, I wouldn't have the children that I have. So that's the other thing. You know, because I wouldn't they, you know, that, that's just how it goes, isn't it? So that's a very, that's very odd to think, you know, that's, it's kind of weird when I look at Oscar and Maddie and Felix and think you three probably wouldn't exist. You'd be different, you know, different variations of yourselves, but you wouldn't be you. So then I think well, then it's obviously, yeah. So that's, it's, it's all very, it's and, that, that must, I don't know, you know, I think it must feel the same. And I've talked to other mums who've been through similar things. I think it's the same sort of situation, you kind of think, well, especially if they've gone on to have other children afterwards. Because suddenly you realise, that actually, you wouldn't have these people that you love in your life, you know, you'd have somebody else to love but somebody who you've never met and you don't know, you know, so it's very strange. I can't really. Yeah, it's very odd. It brings up lots of different emotions, I think. Lots of different emotions. Yeah, definitely changed things in some, definitely changed things in me, I think definitely. Definitely did. Very profound for half 10 in the morning isn't it?
Speaker 1
Is there anything else that you'd like to share about your experience?
Speaker 2
Oh, gosh. I don't know really. I mean, oh, you know, it's one of those things, isn't it? It's one of those experiences where I mean, you know, you can't even sort of like, you can't even sort of say, you know, you can't even like offer up, like messages of hope for other people that are going through or gone through the same thing, because you just don't know, how things are going to work out for, for other people, you know. So it's like, well, you know, you get people who say, oh, well, you know, you'll go on you'll have more or you'll do this or you'll do that, but you don't know that that's the case. And it's, it's really difficult. You know, it's really, from a professional point of view now, it's really hard, because there isn't anything you could ever say to the couple that are going through that to make it better for them. You can't even really relate your own experience to it or bring that into it. So it's, it's tricky. It is tricky. You can't, there's nothing you can say, because it's all, it'll always be there. It's a very, it's a very unusual and unique type of loss, the loss of a, of a, of a baby or a child. I think at any point, you know, I think anyone who loses a child at any stage in that child's life, be it before they were born, just after they were born, or a few years down the line or even, you know, children, you know, adult children. I can't... I think it, I think it must be the worst possible pain you can feel. I can't imagine anything other than that. I don't know. Yeah. But I don't want to end on a gloomy note like that. I want to end on an upbeat note, I'm an upbeat person.
Speaker 1
You are and actually like, it strikes me, I mean, how incredible that you've got that personal understanding of the the depth of that loss when you're working with people who are also potentially going through that.
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah. It's sometimes it's, it's, it can be it, sometimes it can be quite hard, because it kind of brings it back a little bit, then you know, and you think... Like, obviously, it's baby awareness, the baby loss Awareness Week, this week. So there's a lot of stuff going on about that. And it's, you know, and it's kind of like, yeah, it sort of brings it back a bit then. The rest of the tim, you can almost tuck it away a little bit to the back of your mind, you know, because you just do, don't you. You do with any, any sort of like, big sort of moment like that, in order to get, in order to carry on with your life, you tuck things like that away, don't you? You know, you don't, you can't spend all day thinking all day long about horrible things that happen to you, because you just wouldn't get out of bed in the morning would you? So it's when things like that come through and I really feel it, I really feel for those... I really feel for those parents when they come in, and they're going through that, especially if it, you know, I just, I really do, I really feel it. I'm sure all my colleagues really feel it. But yeah, I just think, oh God, you know. And like, and like I said, you know, it's awful, because you, you want to reassure them, but you can't, because you can't sort of make false promises. And really, actually, at that point, they don't want to hear sort of fatuous things, it'll all be fine and you have another. It's the worst possible thing that you can say, you know, so, yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty difficult like that. But, um, but and I don't necessarily tell, wouldn't necessarily tell somebody, but if they, if they asked me, I would tell them, I don't, wouldn't volunteer that information. You know, it's like, it's like, even with women that are in normal labour, you know, I don't sort of go in there going, oh, well, I've got three children, I've got this, I've got that. It's if they then asked me, or if they asked me how my labour's went and I'll say, well, you know, I had forceps with the first one, but then I spat twins out like champagne corks. But I won't like, I won't volunteer information about myself, unless they ask, you know, and it's the same thing with something like that. If they asked me about it, I would be honest, but I wouldn't volunteer it and go, I know exactly how you feel, I went through this, you know, you kind of have to keep that under wraps, you know, keep your own personal life under wraps. But it does, it does sort of like, hurt. But I'm very gratified to see how much better the care and the support is for women now in those same positions, than when I went through the same thing, that's, that's, that's a big relief to see that, you know. To see that we have like a nice room for the couples to be in, you know, everything's, you know, you get the chance to do the handprints, the footprints, the, you know, the photos are done much more tastefully, everything, you know. We give them a lot of support. We're not, you know, it's not you're in you're out, you know, it's kind of like, it was very much like I was in I was out you know. In fact, that was the other thing, I'd forgotten about that, I then had to have after I'd had her, they weren't sure if they'd got all the placenta or not, so I had to go and have like a D&C later on in the day to make sure everything was... So that wasn't very nice either. So and then I remember like, we finally got discharged, you know, I finally got discharged, you know, like later on that evening, and it was just like, you know. So I'd been through labour, then they'd knocked me out with a general anaesthetic to do that, and it was just like... Oh, yeah, I remember getting home and I'd forgotten all about that bit. Yeah, and then yeah, so that was, it was just like, oh God. Yeah. Anyway. So happy days. Yeah. Well not happy days.
Speaker 1
I'm so sorry that you went through all of that.
Speaker 2
Well, yeah, but you know, ended up with three lovely kids instead. You know, or as well, you know, so yeah, yeah. Who I wouldn't have had, you know, they wouldn't be, they wouldn't be here as they are. So I guess, you know, and that's, yeah. And then, I like to think the twins was my sort of buy one get one free, was my like bonus baby to make up for it. So, sorry, my heads like disappeared. I saw, I was looking at my phone and like, you've been talking to my forehead for the last half an hour.
Speaker 1
Oh, well, thank you so much for talking to me, Deborah. You've been so candid and I really, really appreciate it. Thank you very, very much.
Speaker 2
Yeah, I mean, we did feel very, very alone in that experience. We felt like we were the only people that it had happened to, felt very isolated. And your whole, your metaphor about wandering through the forest is exactly what it felt, you know, afterwards. It did feel just as if, almost as if you were inside a sort of, a bit of a, like a plastic bubble kind of thing, you know, and everyone else is on the outside, and you can't quite reach them, and you don't know. Yeah. And it wasn't until really, I suppose when I, when we moved up here and I got much more involved in like baby and toddler groups, because after I'd had Felix, I went back to work again full time quite quickly, because I was still the major breadwinner. So it wasn't till we moved up here that I had the luxury of not working, because we had the twins as babies and a toddler. And I had that chance to really connect with lots of other mums and things. And you really suddenly start to realise how many other people have been through very similar experiences. And you don't realise until then, but because there isn't that opportunity to come together really and talk about that with other people, you don't. And I think a lot of people do feel very, very alone in that. And as I say, it's very difficult for me professionally, because you want to reach out to them and say you're not on your own, you know, I've been through this, but you can't, you know, because you can't make it about your experience, you've got to make it about their experience. So yeah, yeah. So it's, it is, it's to have that chance to sort of see something like this. So that you know, and then and be able to share your experience afterwards, I think will be really cathartic for a lot of people. Really good.
Speaker 1
I hope so.
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think it will, I think so, I think there's, yeah, definitely to see things represented like that would be really amazing. It'd be good actually to be able to somehow like, like offer, like, have a link to that to offer our women who've been in that position, you know, through work, the chance to be able to like link into something like that lost forest, and be able to read those stories and do that or see the show or something like that, be able to watch it if it was like done as an online thing, if they, you know, like have that as a, I don't know...
Speaker 1
Well, we hope that, that things like that are going to be possible.
Speaker 2
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think it sounds fantastic. I keep trying to think about other things I want to say...
Speaker 1
I'm hovering over stop recording, but another gem might come up.
Speaker 2
Oh, God, I don't know. I don't feel, I don't, I don't feel like I've been very articulate. I feel like I've been like a lot of um, um, um. Alison was going to me, oh, you'll be great, you know, because blah, blah, blah, you know, and I was like, oh, I don't know though will I? So I do apologise,
Speaker 1
No, you've been, it's been really, really helpful.
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's, it's funny because it's quite, it is quite hard to articulate it in a way, it's difficult to sort of like, yeah, because it is such an it's, it's such an emotional experience. It's so, even 26 years later, it's kind of weird because it's still very, it is still very kind of raw in many ways. Although in many ways, it feels like it was a long time ago so you feel a bit detached from it, but you don't. And it's, so then it's very hard to put into words how you felt at the time and how you feel now and things like that, because it's yeah, I don't know... It just kind of, it's a weird, it... It definitely transcends any kind of losses or like, sad, not sad moments, horrible moments I've had in my life since, definitely or before. I don't think anything will ever be like that. And in a way, it's, it's kind of weird, because it's, it's sort of, it's sort of set, it's set the benchmark for my grief, like if my grief level, if that makes sense. You know, so it's, I think the only thing that could possibly be worse than that would be anything happening to any of my three children that I have now. You know, so nothing else would come close, you know, in a way. So it's, so it's kind of awful in, in some ways, because I kind of feel like, you know, even though it's awful, but when our parents died, even that, what, if I said it wasn't as bad as, in a way it kind of wasn't, you know. I didn't feel as desperate. I didn't feel as alone. I didn't feel as ripped out from the inside as I did with that. And I don't think I hopefully touchwood never will again. There we go, that's that. I wanted to be cheerful, I didn't want to end on a sad note.
Speaker 1
I know. I know.
Speaker 2
Mix it with another bit, you know, mix it up a bit. Mish mash it. I don't want to be all gloomy.
Speaker 1
Well, thank you for being so honest.
Speaker 2
Oh, no it's a pleasure. And it sounds amazing, I hope I get the chance to see it.
Speaker 1
I hope, I hope we can make it happen.