Liam and Nathan's story
Speaker 1
So, the first question is, what were your life circumstances when you became pregnant?
Speaker 2
How'd you mean?
Speaker 1
Well, like, were you? I mean, I kind of know this, but like, were you, were you already happily married? Or did you already have children?
Speaker 2
We had Keeley, she was, Keeley was nearly three, when we had, was having Liam. Um, and yeah, it was fine. Both, we were both working, living at our other house, and we just had Keeley. And after a couple years we'd decided we'd try for another baby, and I started having Liam. But that was a, it was a bit of a problem pregnancy all the way through, so it wasn't, it wasn't easy. And it wasn't, it was worrying all the way through. So kind of didn't enjoy it. Do you know, if you know what I mean.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 2
I wanted to have him but I didn't enjoy it, because it was just so worrying and scary all the time. I had a few little bleeds and that all the way through. There just seemed to be one thing after another with him. So but yeah, didn't expect like the end result, but yeah, it was, it was quite, was like I couldn't relax. So like when I had Keeley, I didn't even know people lost children really, do you know what I mean, because that seems like something that had happened in like ages ago, years ago. And because of like, the way like medical, medical things are advanced now, you just think they'd be able to cure everything and fix everything. And I hadn't heard of anybody losing a baby or anything, I don't think by then. So I had Keeley and that was fine. And I was so like, naive about it all I think when I had Keeley, but it was nice, because I didn't, there was no worry that, I enjoyed that. When I started having Liam. Like, almost straight away. I was six weeks and I had to bleed, so from then it was like, I was waiting for it to happen again and so it was, it was quite worrying. But I didn't, I didn't imagine that what would happen would have happened. That like, it was just, it was worrying thinking, oh, what's happening now and all this but I always thought it would be okay, and yeah.
Speaker 1
So what, what did happen with Liam?
Speaker 2
So when I came to have Liam, I was 31 weeks. I woke up one night and my waters had gone and I was like, oh my God, because like, I wasn't expecting it, I was like, get to the hospital. So we went to the hospital and they said my waters had gone but I wasn't in labor, so they were going to keep me in but keep their eye on me. So I was in for a whole day I think really and, and I could feel my stomach wasn't like, you know when it's full of fluid and, and it's like round and everything. It was like, I could feel the baby's bones and it was horrible. It was like all, there was no fluid round him, you know, protecting him. It was horrible. And I knew I had lost, I knew all the waters had gone. Um, anyway, let me think what happened with Liam. So they said I'd have to have an emergency C-section. But they'd left me for a couple of days, like you know, just seeing what was going on. But I could tell myself, that it wasn't right. Anyway, they ended up taking me for an emergency C-section because his, his heart rate kept dipping, and he was getting into distress. So he was born, but he was poorly when he was born. And they had to kind of take him straight to the special care unit. And I remember mum and dad came up to the hospital and it was like one o'clock in the morning or something like that. And I was on a ward with other people who'd had babies. And mum and dad had come up and they'd said to us, he was so poorly they were going to have to transfer him to Manchester Hospital in Manchester. And as mum and dad got there the ambulance from Manchester got there, because they said they'd seen it arrive, they didn't know it was for Liam at the time, but it was and when they saw him, they said he's too poorly to move and they couldn't move him. So they just went. And then the next thing they got me up, I'd just had a C-section, took me around to the baby unit and kind of said, we need to, he's not going to survive, like you need to switch his life support off. And it, that was the first time I'd seen him properly, he was hooked up to all these wires and stickers all over him and everything, he's in like an incubator. And they took him out and gave him to us, till he went to sleep. It's horrible. So yeah, that was really, really awful. And then they took me back, put me in a room on my own, but I was next, I was on the postnatal ward, I could hear the baby's crying in the next room. And it was like torture. And we asked could, to see Liam again, and they brought him in his little Moses basket. And then I didn't see him again after that. And they did. They said they were doing a post mortem on him. So they advised us not to see him again after that, really. And then when we went back after like my postnatal checkup, um, they said he had Group B strep, which was the, the infection that killed him really. And it attached to the lungs and because his lungs were so, he was only 31 weeks, so his lungs were too immature really. Um, but, but because it can, it can get into the baby's system if it, like if the waters round go, if the waters go they're very vulnerable to infection. And that's when it does its worst, really. So had they got him out straight away, he might have had a chance, but they left him in there and he was just getting more and more infected. And by the time he was in distress, it was kind of too late, really. But I never. I never imagined that was going to happen. Even when all that was going on, I just thought he'd be okay eventually. And like, well, you know what it's like, you can't describe the feeling of it. Horrible. And I just, I always remember I wanted to hold him up to the window and say, this is my baby, look at him. No. But yeah, it was, it was horrible. And like, if that was like the end of October, so coming up to Christmas then at home with Keeley, and it was like, if it wasn't for her probably wouldn't have got up the next day. But we had to do Christmas for her and everything. So we had to kind of get on with things. But it was so hard. It really was awful. I wouldn't wish it on anybody that, I wish we haven't gone through it. But yeah, so then we had like, they promised us, oh we'll look after you now, we know what, you know if it happens again. And I remember the consultant saying to me lightning doesn't strike twice. That's what he said. And then, my doctor at the time was this lady doctor, she was lovely. And she kept coming out to visit me and everything and properly looked after me. Then I started having Nathan. And she, she said, well, she ummed and ahhed about sending me to the women's at Liverpool but because where I'd had Liam knew all about me, and had promised to look after me and stuff, she kind of let it go that I went there. And I had the same consultant and with Nathan it wasn't, I didn't, I didn't have lots of little bleeds and stuff, nothing really happened, it was just dead worrying. Because I'd just been through that with Liam. So every little thing was like, oh my god what's this? And I had, I think I had a few extra scans and things just to make sure everything was alright. And then when I was 32 weeks with Liam (Nathan) my waters went, and it was like, can't believe this again. So we went in, and he'd promised me that when my waters went they would deliver him, if my waters went we'd deliver. Anyway so we went in just thinking they'll just take me straight in. And he, it was, it was in and through the night so of course like they have this, the very junior doctor comes, and they can't make the decision because the next doctor has passed to say Yeah, then the next doctor up to them. So they have to go up this chain and the consultant that I was under. I'm not sure whether they couldn't get in touch with him that night. But he was saying, oo, just leave her, that it's fine, the baby's better off where he is. But I knew he wasn't. And I'd been in there a couple of days and he stopped moving and I just knew there was something not right. And Steve was visiting me. And it was like nighttime visiting and they rang the bell for everyone to go on. I said don't go because something's not right. And for about three hours, this nurse had been promising to come in and put me on the monitor. And she hadn't, so I said she needs to come in and put me on the monitor and don't you go home because it's, something's not right. I just knew it, I could, I could just tell. Anyway. So visiting was kind of over and she came in and I said, look, would you put me on the monitor? And she did. And as soon as she did they could hear he was like, he was in distress. So then it was all like, oh my God, whisked me off to have an emergency C-section. And do you know what, you feel like saying, I told you so, I told you two days ago, you know? And Steve said, I mean, we'd virtually begged them to deliver him and they wouldn't because the consultant said no, it doesn't, everything's fine. And, and it wasn't. Um, so they taught me for C-section. And Nathan was born, went to special care. They gave him antibiotics straightaway and everything so, and then he lived for two days. And it was just, in fact, we'd been to see him and they were saying to me, um well if you can express some milk we'll start feeding the baby milk, which was like a massive step forward because he'd done so well. And we were like, oh my God, this is just brilliant. And they actually said to Steve, he had been staying at the hospital I think with me because they said to him you go home and get some rest because you're going to have a baby in special care, you're going to have to keep visiting and all this and he said right okay, and he went home and then about five o'clock in the morning they came and woke me up and they said he's took a big turn, he's massively deteriorating, you need to come to special care. And that was like, what, because we'd just seen him and they were like, he's doing really well. And they'd already rang Steve to come in. Anyway, he got there. We were around special care unit. And they was just saying again that like Liam, they just said you know, he's not gonna survive, we need to switch his life support off. So we had to hold him while they turned all the machines off, and it was awful. But then they put us in a little room. I think it was on the special care unit, but it was like a family room thing. And we went in there and we bathed him and dressed him and we stayed with him, well he stayed with us. And I remember Steve's mum and dad coming in, seeing him and holding him. And he had this little green sleepsuit and a little hat, and whilst Steve's mum was holding him he had a little nosebleed and it was just awful. And then we were so angry with the hospital, they took Nathan away and we said right I'm going, discharging myself, and they let me walk out in the, in my nightie and dressing gown because they wanted, they didn't want us in there because they knew damn well they'd caused that. So yeah, that was horrific. And then we had a big battle with them after that, over just basically admitting that what they'd done wrong you know. It wasn't nice but eventually the consultant said yeah, I should have delivered him sooner and you know, you don't know he might have still been poorly but he might have had a chance. We might have had him here now with us you know, and, and that just all got took away because he, I always felt like he was and the consultant, don't tell me what to do, do you know I mean, and it was like, it was just, I hate him with a passion, hate him. I wished badness on him all the time. And that was another, the next Christmas we had to spend without him like, trying to pretend things are okay for Keeley really. But, I mean we got through it with her because if we hadn't have had her, oh my god, I just don't know what we would have done, I really don't. So that was horrific but then I come to have Holly and I went to the women's and that was a whole different experience. So they properly looked after me there, um, but I always feel like that should have happened with Nathan, maybe not Liam, because they wouldn't have known but definitely with Nathan. And Nathan had the same infection that Liam had. So they should have done something sooner. They just didn't, they just left us. So I just can't forgive that. Yeah, I could, I could kind of accept Liam a bit more. Even though it's hard and it's still dead sad and I wish it hadn't happened, but, I did kind of accept that. But not Nathan, I can't ever ever forgive them for that. I totally blame the hospital for Nathan. And our Jan was having Jared at the time as well. So they were like, he'd have been like Jared now, you know. There's only a few days in between them really, a couple of weeks. Our Jan had had Jared at the beginning November and I had Nathan at 21st, 19th actually, 10 days in between them it was. So that's kind of hard and then I remember our Jan coming up to our house with Jared in the carry cot and she just said I need to come because otherwise you just keep putting it off and off and off, and I remember holding him and just crying and it was awful. Really was. And like you think you'll never get over it but I don't think you do I just think you learn to live with it really. Because I mean some days now it can be like fresh as anything, other daysI'm fine. Um, I always feel a bit sad when I go to the crem and put flowers on for him and stuff because there's an ahh, but generally I think we kind of are okay. But it's always there, you just, you've just learned that that's the new you isn't it and just you living with that now and you're like in this club that you don't really want to be in, aren't you?
Speaker 1
Yep, yep. How old would they be now?
Speaker 2
So, um, Liam would be 24 and Nathan would be 23. But they're still babies to me. I never think of them, like they're grown men now but they're always babies. And when I, when I sign cards to them for Christmas and I pu them at the crem I always put mummy and daddy, like I wouldn't be putting that if they were 23 or 24 would I? But I always put from mummy and daddy because they're still babies to me you know. And I miss dad going to, dad used to go up and put plants in the little garden thing at the front of the headstone and that, he used to look after that for me, so I miss, kind of miss dad going up doing that as well so that makes me sad when I go up there as well. Yeah, had a really shitty time and then, then we had Holly. And I just feel like forever grateful that we ended up with her because I really didn't think we were ever going to have another baby. But I like that's thanks to the consultant at the women's because he properly looked after me there, um, and then Chloe was like a surprise baby but she was like, I had her at the women's as well. And they looked after me there as well. With her. So I felt safe there having them even though it was still dead worrying because you can never forget what's happened, um, and even when Keeley had Zach and Eli, I was dead worried because I could never think she hasn't said if everythings going to be alright because I can't think like that, Until you're walking out of the hospital with them in your arms, I can't believe that is going to happen. Because I always think, not that something bad's going to happen, but I know that it can so it kind of stops it being the happy, happy thing. So I went in to have a look when she was having Zach, and Eli was in with her. And, um, I was forever going out into the corridor, going can you just come in and check her, she needs, somebody needs to come in and look, what's going on. And I was proper mad I remember that, I'm not letting anything happen to this baby. They're too precious. So what if I make a nuisance of myself for the few hours we're in here? I don't care. They don't have to see me again. As long as we've come out with this baby. So yeah, so it's like, even though they weren't my own babies, then I'm like, still feel the same about it. I don't think it will ever leave me that awful, that experience we went through, I don't think it will, it just comes back to the surface when I'm dealing with it again. Even though it wasn't me. It was Keeley, it never goes away. But you do live with it. Probably different for going through it, we're probably different people than, than we would have been, maybe? I don't know. But yeah.
Speaker 1
I'm so sorry, Helen. That was just like, such an ordeal to go through.
Speaker 2
Yeah it was, you know and when you look back you just think, I don't know how we did it. I don't know if, if I had to go through that now I don't think I could. You just do it I think, you just have to. And in fact, and I remember dad saying to me, he said you've been dead strong. But I didn't feel like I had at all, felt like, and I felt like I had let everybody down. It was me that let everyone down. And you know, I couldn't look after this baby. And, you know, it was me. It was all to do with me. And that's how I felt like it was my fault. And then I know, it wasn't. And like Nathan, it was definitely the hospital's fault. But it doesn't stop you feeling bad about yourself over it. Yeah. And I think because we'd already had Keeley as well, I don't, I couldn't understand why it had happened you know. Really hard, but. And then, and we went for genetic testing and everything. Just to see because they said it could be to do with boys as well, having a boy. And it actually wasn't it turned out not to be that. Um, and I was like, I remember the doctor saying, well, that's good. Because if you are, if you get pregnant again and have another baby, if it's boy it's not always going to happen. But I wanted a reason for it, you know, I wanted them to say, this is why and we can do this and fix it and it won't happen again. And they never could. And I just think, I've got Holly and Chloe because the hospital managed it better. And as soon as my waters went I was in there having a C-section, they didn't even risk them babies getting infections. Took them straight to baby unit, did lumbar punctures on them both, um, to see if there was any infection and put them on like a massive high dose of antibiotic straightaway in case there was. Anyway, neither of them had any infection. And I had Holly at 38 weeks. And Chloe was, think she might have been 39, but Chloe I had a low lying placenta, just something else I had to have. And I was in hospital for five weeks before I had her. So she was a planned C-section. But, um, she was, I had to go to sleep for that. So I didn't see her being born or anything. So I remember waking up from that thinking, oh my God, because I didn't know anything that had happened. And then she, you know, and then Steve came in with her in his arms and I was like, thank God for that. Like the reliefs unbelievable. So yeah. Just it is, it's hard and looking back and like even talking about it now it's like, oh my god. I don't know how I did it. Really don't. But yeah, I remember dad saying you've been dead strong but I didn't feel it at all. But we must have been because we carried on then and I had like Holly and Chloe and basically just carried on as well, getting up every day when you don't really want to. So I think you must get it from somewhere. But I definitely think having Keeley was like a big thing in making us carry on as well. Because after Nathan, I was just like what is the point. I didn't think it could be. No, what have we done to deserve that, you know, at all. And then, like, what would kill me was, we'd go to the hospital, they'd all be outside smoking, pregnant, smoking, and it'd be like, God, and then there's all these people who like don't deserve their children because they don't want them, they don't look after them. They don't care about them. And they just sail through, all time having children after children and they get took ff them because the can't look after them and I, I think that is the most unfair thing ever, that, that used to really hurt me. You know, and I think we really wanted them babies, you know, we'd have loved them. And they got took away from us. And then other people who just don't even really care about their children just keep having them. So and then what I could never do was walk down the baby aisle at the supermarket either, I couldn't go down it, couldn't see nappies, baby milk, anything, baby bath, things like that, that used to kill me. I avoided that aisle for a long time. Yeah, it doesn't just end does it when? Well, even when we had like a, we had funerals for them as well, because they'd been born alive. And so we had to register the birth and register the deaths as well. So that was, wasn't good. And I remember Steve coming back from, it was Liam, and he'd gone to register his birth. And then he came back after registering the death and he said the funerals next week. And I was like, no, I didn't want him to go, I needed him to still be, and I know we didn't have him at home but I didn't want his funeral because that would be meaning saying goodbye to him as well. And I didn't want that. No, that was awful. Yeah, but even after that it doesn't get any better, really.
Speaker 1
How did you, how did those... How did the experience of losing Liam and Nathan affect you and Steve as a couple do you think?
Speaker 2
I think it probably like made us stronger, really. And after Nathan, because we had this battle with the hospital, we had that to do together like we did that and like actually beat him and won, you know, I mean, we got our, yeah, I should have done things different. And they changed the protocol at the hospital, supposedly, if it ever was to happen to somebody else. If it saved one more baby. And I think we had to do that, I had to focus on something to do because it was all just so horrific what had happened. So I think that probably helped us like carry on as well because we had this fight we had to have, do for Nathan, do you know what I mean. It was always for Nathan that one, with the hospital. So, yeah, that took, took up quite a lot of our energy and time and stuff. And then just as all that was kind of coming to an end, I found out I was having Holly. So it all worked out at the right kind of time, really, and then I mean, I wasn't going to go back to that hospital anyway, no matter how many protocols they changed. So never, never darken the door again. But it was like an old hospital, in fact mum had our Jan in there, and it was like a maternity hospital. And a few years later, they knocked it down and moved into the main hospital and I was so glad. I felt like going dancing on the ruins. But for years as well, if we ever drove down that road, I couldn't look at the hospital, I had to look the other way. Like that, just going past and couldn't even look at it. And you don't realise how many things, like talking to you now about stuff like that, it's like it did affect us massively and carried on affecting us well after it all happened. Because even now, there's houses built on there now and I won't look at them really, when I go past I avoid that. And I think, I don't know if I'm purposely doing it, I don't go past and go, I'm not looking at you. I just don't do it, do you know what I mean, I just know I can't look there. And that's 23 years later. But I can manage to go down the baby aisle now. I'm alright with that.
Speaker 1
Well, you got to now, you're, you're a nanny now.
Speaker 2
Yeah, I think I think because of all that with Nathan and, you know, fighting against the hospital, I think it kind of made us a bit stronger as well. Then, because like when we were having Holly then, that was scary, even though I was in a really good hospital and being properly looked after, it was still scary. Um, and then, obviously, like, she was fine. And then when I come to have Chloe, and I was in there for those five weeks, I just, I was just glad to be there. Because like anything that happens, I'm already here and it was, you know when you think, God, I'd love to just sit around for a few weeks doing nothing. It was so boring. It was unbelievable. I was like, Oh my god, and then the 9/11 happened and all that was going on, and it was just full of all that. And I remember Steve calling, he was working on the Wirral at the time and he'd call in, because the hospital was in Liverpool, so he'd call in on his way to work or home from work and stuff. And 9/11 had happened. And he, he was going on afternoons and he came in and it was just coming on the telly, God look at that. And that's just before I had Chloe, and that was all going on. But yeah, I was, I was glad to be in there, because people said, if any moment because of where my placenta was if I had a bleed, that I could massively hemorrhage and it would be like dangerous for the baby and all this. So they kept me in there because if it did happen at least I was there, and they could just scoot me into the delivery suite. But I mean, that never happened. I went to a planned C-section date for her and she ended up being okay. But yeah.
Speaker 1
So is there, I mean, thank you, you've spoken so fully about, about your about what happened. So I don't have any more questions about it. But I just wondered, is there anything else about your experience that you'd like to share with, I guess with people who have had similar experiences or don't know anything about pregnancy and baby loss?
Speaker 2
I don't know, I just think people, it's like you said people don't say, don't talk about it because they, I think they're frightened of making you upset but you want to talk about it, don't you? I want to, I want people to use Liam and Nathan's name. I love them and we've always loved them, we've got pictures up in the house. Holly, Keeley was three, she remembers bits but not a lot. Um, and Holly and Chloe obviously weren't born then. But they know all about them, they call them their brothers and, and we've got the pictures up and stuff and... I don't know, we use their names, talk about them. I don't want to not be able to speak their names. I don't want anyone to think, oh we mustn't mention them in case you get upset. I want people to acknowledge that they existed. They're still my babies, you know, I've still got two little boys as well. And if people say well, how many children have you got and I've found myself saying, oh three, and I'll go I've got two little boys as well in my head. Because I always acknowledge them. But yeah, I just and I do think people don't talk about it enough. Even now. I mean, that was 20 odd years ago for me. But I think even now it's probably still a bit like that really, although these days, there's a lot of groups online and stuff that you can join and be with people who've been through similar things, which, that was not available at the time for us. So we, I mean, I felt it was, they don't ever happen to me. And it's only by, you gradually find out all the people and you think, you know. I remember mum's friend, we used to live next door to them when I was little. Jennifer she's died now. But she had a baby, that diedd, and I'm sure his name was Andrew. And I always remember about that baby. But I didn't know anything, any details. I always just knew she had a baby that died. And that must have been when I was little really. Then she had another boy and a girl after that. And mum and dad, even though we moved to Bleak Holl then, Mum and Dad always stayed friends with them. And when I had Liam, I remember Jennifer coming to our house to see me. And we had, they'd done like, you know, a memory card with like handprints and footprints, a little lock of his hair and a picture of him. And they'd done that. And she was like, oh, my God, I wish they'd have done this when I had my baby, she said they just, I had him when he died, and they took him away and I didn't even know where they took him and things and, and it was so different then, that was like when I was younger. So that was probably 20 to 30 years before I had Liam. But by the time I had Liam, they were at least giving you a card with a handprint, and like, as a memory card thing. And I had that. And so it's kind of improved to that extent, I suppose. But now, I think hospitals, they have like a special family room in case it happens to you and things. And so I think things must be a lot better now to go through that experience, even though it's a horrible thing. But I mean, they put me back on a postnatal ward after I'd just lost my baby, you know. And that was awful. That was like torture. And I don't think that would happen now because I think they keep you well away. But maybe they've just learned bits and pieces over the years to make it better for people. I don't know but that, yeah, it was awful enough. But I think even now with all like, all the social media and everything that you know, theres groups to help you and you can join and talk to people and stuff. It's only people who that's happened to we'll talk to each other about it, other people still don't really. You just find, I think you find the, kind of like gravitate towards people who've been through the same thing. And you know, you're okay there because they all know kind of what you've gone through. But somebody who's not been through it, wouldn't have a clue. And maybe that's why they still feel like we shouldn't talk about it. I don't know. I don't really know anybody that has lost a baby since, since I've gone through all that, to know what it's like now, to know if people do talk about it more openly or whatever, but certainly not when I'd had Liam and Nathan. I remember one of Steve's friends, well, he worked with him actually, and he'd come to our house and I don't know why it was really, but he was only about a young lad but he was, he was single and he just worked at the factory thing and just went out to the pub and things like that. And he didn't, he didn't have like a girlfriend and children and stuff like that. And I remember he came one day, and I don't even know what he'd come for. And I don't know if it was after Liam or after Nathan and I, he was in the front room, and I walked in and he went oh, he said have you got over your miscarriage yet? And I was like, Yeah, I thought, oh my god, I didn't have a miscarriage. And that really hurt me. But he was obviously trying to be nice but said such the wrong thing as well, that, that was worse than him saying nothing to me, I think. Because I thought, like, and you know, what do we do go into this big thing about well, actually, he was born. He was born alive and this, that, and I just, I just had to say yeah. But it really hurt me really badly. And he would never know he said the wrong thing or that. But maybe because people don't know how to talk about it to you or even what to say. But maybe if you've not been through it you don't know what to say, as well, I don't know. But yeah, I think people don't talk about it, I think probably people would avoid, avoid it rather than come and ask you about what had happened and things, you know. Our next door neighbours came in after I'd had Liam and Nathan, and like, they obviously, we told them what had happened and things. And then I remember a friend of, somebody Steve's mum knew, she'd lost a baby, about a year before I'd lost Liam, I think something like that. And it was something to do with the baby's heart, and um, she went, ended up going to the women's and then she had another baby. And he was okay. And Steve's mum asked her to come and talk, just come around and talk to me. And we became quite good friends through both having lost a baby. And I found I could talk to her really well because she'd been through it, it wasn't the same thing, but she'd been through losing a baby. She was telling me all about you know, when she had her next baby she, she'd gone to the women's at Liverpool and that and so when I came to have Holly and I went there, she'd like told me the, the consultant that she was under and I'd asked for him and things. So that kind of helped me, um, go through that bit as well really I think. But I could talk to her and she could talk to me and she asked me all kinds things about it because she'd been through that as well and could talk about it. But I don't, don't ever remember really talking to anyone that hadn't been through that in the same way, like tell them like the absolute details and everything. Because they kind of just sat there and said, really sorry, don't really ask questions. People know I've lost Liam and Nathan, but don't like ask about it. Yeah, I imagine it's still the same for people who are going through it now. I don't know. But I think there's probably also a lot more out there in the way of like, you know, these Facebook groups even and things like that, but there was nothing like that when I had them. So, yeah.
Speaker 1
Thank you so much for talking to me about all of it, Helen.
Speaker 2
You're okay, I probably haven't told you half of what went on.
Speaker 1
I mean, if there's anything else that you, that you like, that you think of or you want to like, you know, if there's more that you want to say to me about it.
Speaker 2
Like, what did you, you know, this, whatever you do, and what are you like, the story of it, do you want to have like, what it feels like for those parents?
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 2
As part of it. And telling people what it's like for parents.
Speaker 1
That kind of, I think, you know, it's that. So when we, I think, well, I know this much about the play so far... So it's kind of like we're setting it in. They get the news that there's something wrong with the baby. And then they get this, this, the set, the stage kind of turns into this frozen forest. So it's like they get stuck, they go and get, they go and get lost in the woods. And then they can't find the way out of this. So it becomes this kind of like, it almost becomes like a fairy tale. Because it's such, this is, it'll make more sense when you see it. But it was like for, for, in our experience we just felt so, so, you can't find the words to describe this like horrendous, bleak, dark, lost place that you find yourself in. It's like the light's gone out in the world. And for me, I mean, you may, may feel differently about it. And but I mean, I remember you sort of mentioned earlier in the interview, like you can't describe I think or you can't like, how it feels this like, this like, the world's ending or something. So it's, it's kind of, it's them going through this experience of this pregnancy but in this kind of weird world where the world is ending, as a way of trying to capture what it, what it feels like, like, what that place is that you're suddenly in, that no one, and no one could understand you. It's almost like you're not...
Speaker 2
It's lonely isn't it? You feel like, you feel, you feel like there's only you that it's happened to at the time I think. Yeah, and you don't, you don't want to be part of it, you don't want it to be happening. At all. It is, it's just... I felt a bit like hopeless, I don't know if that's the word it's just like what is the point? Do you know what I mean, like? You can't describe what it, what it feels like can you. And I think that's why like, when you do talk to other people, like there was a group set, set up just after we'd had Nathan, Steve found it. And it was, it's called Group B strep support. And it started off very small, it's a little charity and it's people who've lost babies through that can get like, um, they do like a newsletter, you can tell your story in it and stuff and I've done Liam's and Nathan's in there. And it's nice seeing it, you know, to see it, see the name there on the page and things and other people reading about them. But it's like that, that was quite comforting for me to know that there were other people out there that had gone through the same as us. Exactly the same thing wrong with their babies that was wrong with us. And, but what, what I can't believe now is that it's still happening. Even though you know, it's a case of shot of IV antibiotics, couple of quids worth of antibiotics and your baby could be saved and they just don't test for it, they don't, you know it's going on all this time, they've been campaigning to like make more aware of it and things like that but it still happens because people are still writing the stories about that they've just gone through it. But it's turned into quite a big charity now, there's quite a lot of members and things. And like, at first when it was only small it was really comforting to know that there were other people there that had gone through that with us and that you could talk to them about that, um, and know they, knew they understood, do you know what I mean. But, I don't know, I don't know, maybe people can get that kind of comfort now from like all the Facebook groups and things like that that are set up. Like say, it could be people that it's happened to not, because you don't join something like that for the fun of it, do you? So you wouldn't be ever on, in a group like that if you hadn't gone through something like this anyway. How lucky would you be if you never had to experience that? Some of the people don't realise how lucky they are. Yeah, it is, it's sad. It's like lonely and it's, you can't explain to someone how you feel, and, and somebody else who's been through it, obviously it's not, not exactly the same as you so their experience is a bit different. So you can't ever, you only ever know yourself what it feels like don't you? And like, you can probably like, I don't know if sympathise is the word, or empathise with other people that are going through it. We still don't really know what they're going through. And how much it, you just know yourself how much it hurts and can imagine that that's what's happened to them. But if you've never been through it, I don't know how you can imagine because it's just, it is unimaginable pain and the hurt and the sadness and just picking yourself up the next day. I don't know how you manage. I mean, like, when I look back, I really don't know how we did it. Just like, bit like you really, it was like two so close together, that we'd had Liam in the October. And then the following November, I was having Nathan and it was just like, I mean, Steve sat in the hospital when we were having Nathan, and he's saying, I'm telling you, this is what happened last year, and it didn't end well. You know, please deliver him and do that. No, no, it's fine where he is. And it was like, you just couldn't make them see. And because the, the medical professional, like the consultant and all this. You're just like nothing to them are you? You know your word can't be better than theirs. So I think if they'd have listened to us, maybe, if we'd have felt like we're being listened to, and they'd have done something sooner, you know, he might have been saved. He probably would have been because if I'd have been, if I'd have gone to the women's with Nathan and I'd turned up with my waters gone, they'd have delivered him straightaway. And that would have been all the difference. But they left him for two days there, just getting infected and infected. Till it was too late. And they just weren't listening to you. And I think a lot of, you know like when they say your mother's instinct. I think that is definitely right. You know when there's something not right as well. I think like and that's why I really, when Keeley was having Zach and Eli, she would have never said, oh, you need to come in and. I had to be like her voice for it. I'm not letting this happen again, you know, I won't let it happen again because I couldn't stand the thought of one of my kids having to go through that. Makes you dead, like dead protective. Not in like a, oh you can't do this and you can't do that way. But I'm dead protective of them. No, and I think it probably made me like that. Going through that with Liam and Nathan.
Speaker 1
Oh, Helen, what a story. Thank you for talking to me.
Speaker 2
But when, when I had Liam, I wrote Liam's story, and like, it's upstairs. I've got like a thing that, if you want me to send you that? Because I'm sure in there it's got like, loads of like our feelings and stuff in.
Speaker 1
Yeah, because it was so much more immediate then. Yeah, if you'd be, if you don't mind sharing that, that would be really great. And just a copy of it. Don't send me anything like...
Speaker 2
I mean, I wrote that, because that helped me. I felt, I felt like I needed to do that. And, but I've never been able to do it for Nathan. I can't, I just feel so different about that. But, yeah, I'm sure like, there's probably loads of stuff I haven't told, you know, things that happened that made me feel certain ways and stuff, but that, that might have bits in it that might help, I don't know.
Speaker 1
It would be really useful. And I'd love to read it and we'll take very good care of it. And obviously, send it back to you as well.
Speaker 2
It's okay. I can, I can just send you a copy of it.
Speaker 1
Yeah, send me a copy of it. Thank you, really appreciate that.
Speaker 2
Yeah, it might, might just have a few little bits in but I feel like I haven't really been any help to you because...
Speaker 1
You've been a massive help, you really have. You have it's like, thank you so much. It's so, I'm really sorry. The first thing to say, I'm so sorry you went through all of that. And, um, I, I just, I'm so sad about Liam and then I just understand what with Nathan, like how, yeah, how, almost that you can't, you can't move on from it in some ways because like it was, there;s somebody who's directly at fault for causing it.
Speaker 2
Yeah. I mean I, I've always said I'd have got more pleasure out of hiring someone to go kneecap him really, I'd have paid somebody to do that just to give him some pain. I said I hope he remembers us every day. I want him to remember us, what he did to us, every day. And that you know, he can never do that to somebody else.
Speaker 1
Is he still at, is he still practicing?
Speaker 2
No I think he's probably retired by now. Because he wasn't a spring chicken then. But he was so pompous and I remember he had this really posh accent. And he always wore a pinstripe suit with a waistcoat. And he was just, yeah yeah, and he went on holiday in his yacht. No, and I just thought, I hate him so much. You know, your life didn't change one bit, but you devastated ours, over and over again. And he just carried on. And I remember Steve actually saying to him, because after we'd had this like big battle and we actually had a meeting with him, and it was actually the neonatal nurse, who, I, I had this horrible thought about her, because she was on duty the night we lost Liam. And then Nathan was doing really, really good. And then she was on duty, and he had like a really bad turn, and I, I've always had this thought in my head, was it her? Do you know what I mean, it probably wasn't, but she was there, both times. And I always think, you know, because you hear about these nurses that enjoy making children in pain and stuff, and I always, I always think, you know, did she have something to do with it? Because, because he was doing so well. And then the next thing he was like really deteriorating, and there she was. I just think she might have been the bad penny like that kept turning up as well. But she was at this meeting. And I never trusted her either, you know, and Steve said to the consultant, um, he said like, because he worked at Lever Brothers, like doing, in the labs with all chemicals and everything and he said if I made such a massive mistake at work I'd lose my job. No, because he has quite a responsible job at work, if he did something so bad, he'd have lost his job. And he said and you're here carrying on as if nothing's happened. And that is, so it's just all so unfair, so unfair that it happens to people in the first place, but like when there's someone to blame that made it quite hard to come to terms with and accept, and I don't ever think I really will accept losing Nathan because I always think he should still be here. And Liam. Yeah, I mean, okay, so they didn't know. But when I come to have Nathan they should have thought hang on. And we were telling them this happened last year with Liam, this is, this is, the sequence of events went the exact same way. We could have said what was going to happen next because it had happened with Liam the year before. And we're not doctors, but we could see what was going on and like, so like when you know yourself, like your instinct tells you it's, something's not right. So, yeah, it's just horrible. So there's like loads of things, loads and loads of things probably that I haven't told you, but, if it's, if it's like for, how, how you feel when it's happening to you. I think it's just lonely. You know, like, like I said the feeling that I was to blame was the worst thing as well. If I was looking at somebody else doing it I'd probably be thinking, God, don't be daft you're not at all. But you can't help that. That thought in your own head can you that makes you feel like that. And I think it's probably changed us both forever. I don't know. But I think as well if, if we'd have had Liam and Nathan, we probably wouldn't have had Holly and Chloe either.
Speaker 1
Yeah.
Speaker 2
You know. Not that I'd want to go through that just so, but, I don't think we'd have had five children. Definitely not. But I always, I always feel like lucky to have had them two. I know I'm lucky to have had them. And I just think people who haven't been through that don't realise how actually really lucky they are. When they've had, you know, they just sailed through and had all these babies and nothing's happened to them, nothing bad. And I won't wish it on anybody because I think it's the absolute worst thing that can happen to somebody. Like other things happen in order don't they? Like, eventually, like you lose your grandparents and, and your parents. But you don't ever expect to be burying your own children. Ever. It's just wrong. It's just not the right order of things. And you can't get your head around it I think because it shouldn't be happening. But yeah, I'll dig, I'll dig out that Liam story that I wrote and you can have a look through it and if you can use anything out of it, feel free
Speaker 1
Thank you very much.