Tiny's Story
Speaker 1
So, Lucy, what were your life circumstances when you found out that you were pregnant?
Speaker 2
Oh, just to say, I should have said this before, I'm, I'm pregnant again. But but much, much, much further on? There's an actual bump. And you know, all things being equal, it might actually happen this time.
Speaker 1
So where are you in this current pregnancy?
Speaker 2
I'm six months, weirdly, not long. But yeah. So first time around, I was, we'd been trying to have a baby for 18 months, approximately. But they had found, they'd found a thyroid condition, so there'd been like a pause. And they'd kind of corrected my thyroid levels, and then said, okay, you can start trying again, but still nothing. And then we found out, I was pregnant. Yeah, it was, November, yeah, November, so nearly a year ago, November last year. And my other half had just changed jobs. So we were, we were living in a friend's rented house, renting a house from a friend, while we kind of worked out what we were doing. And we didn't tell anyone. Or I think I told a friend who I was working with. But kind of followed that, sort of. And I don't know whether it's that, whether it's linked to the likelihood of it, of miscarriage or something going wrong in that first bit, but that weird thing of like, oh, you don't tell anyone for the first three months? So we'd sort of done that. And it was, I don't know, I was feeling, feeling fine. And yeah. But it was, I think the biggest memory of it was like, oh, my God, is it actually happening? Because we'd started to kind of, I didn't want to go down the IVF route because of my mental health history. I think I may have got to that point. But at that point, I was like, I don't think that's going to be for me. So we were talking about adoption, and what the other ways were becoming parents basically. And so it was like, oh, okay. We'd also got to that point where, like, the monthly drama of it was really starting to kick in and hurt us I think, and, like, the idea of sex was just like, wait I'm going to go and pee on a stick, just eurghh. But yeah, and then this sort of huge kind of shock that I actually seemed to be pregnant. But yeah, that was, that was first time around.
Speaker 1
Okay. And how did you feel about the pregnancy?
Speaker 2
Um, yeah, like you, you know, you do. Like, sort of excited but not letting myself be because you do know the stats. And, you know, I was, I'm thirty nine so I was like and with the thyroid condition I know those two things like slightly elevate, like a million other things, slightly elevate the chance of miscarriage but just knowing that, just knowing how on paper common it is. What was weird though is that it was only after I had had the miscarriage that I found out how many friends had also had one. And I was like, this is crazy. Why don't we tell each other this shit? Like, I mean, I think it's only because I like, through my mental health stuff I've just learned to talk. Like, I've learned that I get through stuff by it coming out not going in. And so, only with close friends, but I did talk about it. But it was crazy. That, those stories that like really close friends, and I was like, oh, and like my sister told me she'd had an ectopic pregnancy. And I was like, how, how do I not know that? Like, anyway. But yeah, I was excited. But yeah, but tentative, I suppose just because of, but then you kind of, I don't know how you avoid building the idea of a human around it. Or, you know, it was stuff like the due date was going to be almost exactly my birthday. And you know, we were talking, I remember at Christmas, when I was still pregnant. I was talking about like, oh, my God, this time next year, we will have a kid that's mental. And yeah, and all those other kind of stresses and plans around the potential of IVF, or the potential of adoption, suddenly, suddenly disappeared from the conversation and so, yeah, that kind of strange mix of it becoming incredibly real and knowing that that's, you're in a really delicate moment and there's quite a big likelihood that it won't work out. But that not being real. It might as well it's just a number, like 24 or 25%, or whatever it is.
Speaker 1
So how did you find out that there was a problem with the pregnancy?
Speaker 2
So, I'm trying to think... So one of the first things that, I thought there was a problem before, like quite a few weeks before, because I gotten, I can't remember what it was, I think it was just pains. But, but I was really anxious. And so went into the early pregnancy unit in Oxford, where they were so lovely. And they did a scan and they saw a heartbeat. And they were like, it's all good. They were like, honestly it was probably just gas. And I was like, good to know. And then, so that was, that was really early on, that was like seven weeks or something. And then yeah, like two and a half weeks later. I'd, I can't, like I've always been a runner and I'd spoken to like my GP and the midwife and like, I was like, is it fine to carry on doing what I'm already doing? And they were like, yeah, that's our recommendation like and so I carried on with my usual kind of daily, half an hour jog. And I came back from one of these on a Friday in January. And it was the Friday before my partner's birthday. And there was a tiny bit of blood when I peed but it was like, like the sort of blood you get at the end of a period, like that dried blood. But tiny amounts, but I was like, oh my god, I remember just sitting on the loo and shouting downstairs like, there's some blood. And it was quite late on a Friday, it was like, five maybe. And so kind of called, called the GP and she was like, okay, if it gets to be a lot, go straight to A&E. But she was like it, it might be fine, it might not be fine. As long as you're not bleeding heavily, we'll just get you in for a scan first thing Monday. So then there was just this awful weekend, where we saw two sets of my partner's closest friends who didn't know we were pregnant. And, and sometimes there'd be a little bit of dried blood. And sometimes there wouldn't be. And then on Monday went for the scan. And just remember, remember it just going really quiet. And it's made scans ever since, like, a really unmanageable feeling. And they said, it's gone a lot smaller since we last scanned and there's no heartbeat. It's at that moment, that you then realise that you had totally failed not to get attached. Like, on such a massive level. And we just both completely broke, they sort of, I don't know how long we were in the unit, but they were basically just shuffling us about from room to room. Because they couldn't, I don't think they felt like oh, we can't hoik them out into the carpark like this. What else do I remember? Yeah, we'd started referring to the baby as tiny. And we were in one room, where we'd been moved. And I don't remember very much about it. But I remember a woman coming in and handing us a little card that said, like, bereavement counseling, and I was like, and sort of put in my pocket, and then, and then someone came in and said, okay, so these are the options, you know, you can hold on and see what happens, let it happen naturally, or you can we can see about the surgical procedure, or you can take this pill. And again, I was like, it's something we don't like, all of that was new information. Like I sort of, I knew sort of vaguely but I didn't, I didn't know as well. So it just felt like a shock. And then I just remember saying, well, I don't want to, I don't want to be on my own. So because of working away so much I was like if this isn't going to happen for like two weeks, and I'm in a hotel room somewhere on my own. I'm like, no fucking way. So I elected for the, for the surgical procedure, and just put the bereavement counseling thing in my pocket. And that night we, it felt so sad, coming back to the house somehow, and just not wanting to be in the house where there'd been this couple expecting a baby before and now there wasn't. We went to a pub session. Sat with a bunch of strangers at a pub down the road. Singing folk songs, it felt a bit like a wake. And it weirdly helped. Yeah.
Speaker 1
And would you be comfortable talking me through what happened with the procedure?
Speaker 2
Yes, sure. So they were the, the doctor that we saw at the EPU was great because I basically said, look, I'm, I'm away on an r&d like next week. This was on the Monday and it was like the following week. And I said, can, can it happen this week? And she was like, let, let me call, let me check. And they got me in for that Thursday. So super quick. And so we went into the hospital in Banbury, and oh, and what had happened in between was, which felt really weird, was we, we told the people close to us what was going on. And we just needed people. But it was really weird, because we hadn't told them we were pregnant. So at that point, I think I realised in my head, I was like, if we're ever pregnant again, like, I'm just going to tell the people I need, that I would call if something went wrong. So in various weird conversations around that happened, like friends were generally great. Like, my sister was just really kind of lovely and, but very practical as well. She said, she, at that point was a trainee nurse, and she's now a nurse. But she was like, download some films. And I was like, it's meant to be really quick. She was like, download some films, you will need something. So I remember downloading a load of ‘Man Like Mobeen’. Oh my god, it's amazing. Like, literally brilliant. This comedy thing on Iplayer. And, anyway, I'll tell you about that another day. There was a particular moment when it was really helpful. But, my, yeah, and then, you know, we had a conversation with my partner's mum. And she was, she was just really sad. Really sad, which was really, like, of course, completely understandable. But it's, that's the other thing you start realising it's like, oh, like other people investing in this, it's not just mine or ours. And then people said, weird stuff. Like, you know, my, my mum came and was with me. Like, I think, yeah, there was a day that week where my partner went back to work, he had a day, they were, they were really shit at his work like, there was next to zero understanding and he told them what had happened. And the expectation was just he, that he can't, and you know, in the theatre industry, the lovely, lovely theatre industry, which is all meant to be full of like caring humans, and you just kind of go okay, right. Not, always. And, yeah, so he had to go back into work and deliver a load of sessions and he was also under a load of weird stress from his boss as well. So he was really struggling I think. And my mum came and spent that day with me and we went and had, that was, that was back at the moment when you could go to cafes together. It was, it was that other universe that we used to live in. And then it was funny when she saw my partner, she sort of said something about like, oh, you, you know, back in my day you didn't make fuss. And she like, because I asked her, she hadn't, she hadn't had any miscarriages. But yeah, there's this weird dynamic of, because I think at that point, we'd called the bereavement counsellor card. And she, and we were, we were going to have some sessions, and I'd kind of mentioned that to my mum. But she's all, she's often quite reactive about therapeutic help. Even though it's saved my ass more than a number of times, but that's a tricky thing for her. So yeah, there were sort of some comments like that. And, and lots of people saying like, oh, at least you know, you can get pregnant. Which is an absolute classic I now I know. Which is just, you just don't know what to say. Like, oh. And then yeah, went in for the procedure. My partner came in with me on that Thursday, and it was meant to happen quite early in the morning, but the anaesthetist had been called away to an emergency. So we ended up watching Man Like Mobeen, on headphones, on this hospital bed, surrounded by other people, all in the same situation. In various stages of like, unexpected grief. And so the noise in the ward was quite distressing. And you could hear the nurses being kind in the same way and saying the same things to everyone. Even down to this nurse there and, like, she'd come around to put the like, compression stockings on everyone, I think. And she said to me, like, oh, are you are you a runner and I was like, yeah, she was like, oh, you've got, you can usually tell because you've got your carves are the same size. And that's like, if people don't exercise lots, that's quite unusual. Anyway, she's just this kind of patter, whatever. And then you could hear her doing exactly the same thing next door. And it was like, oh, god, this is really bleak. And, and then, we didn't know. I think the moment that was felt really difficult was when they said it might not be able to happen today. I was just like, I don't know that I'll get here. Again. Because as well, like, I'd been like, I'd had that feeling of that was both horrible and not wanting to let go of that. Baby was still in me. And then, then the anaesthetist. Yeah, so we're watching Man Like Mobeen, like in sort of floods of tears, but it was also making us laugh. It's about oh, you know, I used to live in Birmingham, and I'm from the Midlands, and it's about a really specific area with Birmingham. And it's made by someone from there, and it's just so bang on. And really beautiful and funny and stupid. And, um, yeah, then the anaesthetist appeared again, and I ended up having some really weird conversations with him. He was really lovely. And he was doing that thing where he was making kind of small talk. And he was like, oh, you know, what? I think he said something like, what would you be doing if you weren't here today? And I was like, oh. And I told him what I did. And he was like, oh, do you know this company? And this company? And, like, was weirdly like, had had loads of mates from Edinburgh who'd ended, like independent theatremakers and knew Summerhall and was like, oh, I was up there for the festival and did you see this show? Anyway, so that was really weird. And I had that classic thing of like, when I was going under, of feeling like I, you know, we were probably meant to be together and the nurses were all looking at my tattoo. And I but all through it, I was just like, pouring tears. I didn't know where they were coming from, like, I didn't think it was, like, I think because you're told it's so common. Um, you, I couldn't believe I felt as much as I did. Which, to be honest, has been quite a common experience. Like, it's been my general tendency to, to feel things a lot. So a bit of me was like, well, of course. And then, but the other bit of me was really like, it's a bit like an out of body experience, because you're just sort of told, like, like, it feels like no one really responds to it, other than to, like, clear it up, like, physically. It's like, well, you know, you're, it's just like, well, you'll try again. And well, it's really common. And, you know you can get pregnant now, which is a real positive and, and you're just thinking like, all these messages about how like normal it is. And it did, it felt like, yeah, I don't know, full scale grief, which also felt a bit mad. I was like, okay. I remember finding the moment where they give you the suppository to like, I don't know, to soften or something, or to, and then the bleeding started, and I could feel the bleeding starting, I remember that feeling really difficult. And then came around and it was done. But it was sort of the middle of the afternoon and we hadn't eaten anything all day because I had to not have anything for the general anaesthetic but they'd all been delayed. I remember that being weird. And again, us going like, I don't think I can go, I don't think I want to go home. And again, we, on a Thursday night my dad plays the guitar with a few mates, like another sort of session in a pub in Staffordshire. So we drove from Banbury up to my dad's. And yeah, went with him to this pub session, I remember being a bit freaked out that he told his mate what had happened. And then sort of trying to be fine with it, but feeling a bit like if, if anyone mentions it, I'll just be in bits. So feeling kind of a bit, a bit frustrated with my dad around that. But kind of glad to be away and, and then. Oh, that was another moment on the procedure day that took me by surprise again, when they said what do you want to do with it? And I was like, oh, I, I don't know. And they said, oh, you don't have to decide now, you can leave it here. And I was suddenly like, no, no, no, give me, give it to me. But I didn't know that was going to happen. Then, so again, I was just like, in bits because there was no warnings or anything. And yeah, and then I just didn't want to let go of this little box. But also couldn't look in it, and didn't, was too scared. But couldn't let it go. I think I put it in my bag. And we went to the session. I just wanted it like on my knee. My partner and I kind of chatted about what we were going to do with it, like we were like I don't even know what's allowed. And then we're like, oh, well, who cares? Because they'd said, oh, you can like arrange a ceremony with like, there's a priest who does it and that didn't feel right. But again, I was like amazed that they, they were, that was something that was being offered or, yeah, I just didn't, I didn't know there would be anything. And we went up into the woods by my dad's, he still lives in the same house where we'd grown up, and my dad actually said, oh there's, there's a really big oak tree, you'll probably remember it when you see it, but you go this way. And that might be a nice place. And yeah, we went, we walked up with a spade. And buried Tiny. And I was really glad we did that. Earlier, like, in this summer as well, we were back up to see my dad. We'd sat in the garden and had a cup of tea and gone for a walk. And oh, the walk was just coming to an end tonight and I was like, I'm just going to go, I'm just going to go and see Tiny's truly. And my partner and I headed, headed off, and met them back at the house afterwards. And my sense of direction is really shit. And, um, I was heading in the wrong direction for the tree. And my partner was like, no, no, I think it's, I think it's this way. And we found it again. And it was, of course, by that point, I was pregnant again. And it was really mad. So the tree had been hit by lightning. There was this huge branch down. I mean, it's a really old massive tree. So it was, I think it was fine. And then it must have been like that before, but we just hadn't noticed it. But like the, the tree looks like it's got an old bit that's dead around a new bit that's growing. Like the main bit, the trunk, and it just seemed so weird. That that was exactly what had happened in my body. Really strange. And kind of great. I can't remember what you'd asked, you asked about the procedure and we're now talking about the oak tree.
Speaker 1
What, what would you say about the emotional challenges that you faced as a result of your miscarriage or missed miscarriage?
Speaker 2
Well, the, I think the bigness of it, compared to the bigness of their feelings around it. Compared to what the world seemed to expect the response to be. I also really couldn't find anything to read that found helpful. Like, I went on the, like the Tommy's website and stuff, but I think I was looking for, which was really useful for kind of practical information because my anxiety about getting pregnant again, then went through the roof. But I couldn't find, I found one poem by Sylvia Plath, that refers, I think, in a line to a miscarriage. And just didn't, like scoured for other stuff, like read a couple of really like quiet shit novels that have a bit of something about it in, but I was desperate to kind of read experiences of it that weren't just like everyone else's, like mine unprocessed version. I was looking for something that had been translated into something else, something that had, someone had done some art on, you know, like, so that it was, it wasn't just repeating and amplifying my own feelings around it, it was, it was somehow moving through them or processing them in a way that was, felt healing, rather than triggering. And I just couldn't find anything. And I think the thing that was completely brilliant for us was, was this counseling, which, we had two sessions, I think before it went on to, before lockdown happen. And then, but then she carried it on via zoom, which was amazing. So yeah, I think, big other challenges were telling people and, because of sort of needing to because of how I was for a bit, and dealing with some of those responses or non responses, or like I remember telling one friend and we were messaging or emailing or something, but in quite a lot of detail about what we're doing, where we were at, whatever. And I, I mentioned it, and she just didn't reply to the email. So it's, it's things like that, and everyone's got their own kind of baggage around it, or so many people have that it's, but I found those things quite hard. I found, like, parents kind of expecting us not to still be talking about it really hard. And then when I was pregnant again. Yeah, I just didn't know how I was going to get through the first trimester, if I was, you know, even if we did get through the first trimester, I didn't know how I was going to do it. Because I found out I was pregnant in... when was it, April? And yeah, it just felt really soon. Because the miscarriage was right at the end of January. Which oddly is when this one is now due, they are all determined to ruin my partner’s birthday. In some way. Yeah. So things like the fact that, you know, there's no scan until 12 weeks, it feels too long, feels too much. It feels like that shit would never happen if this was about male bodies. I also had a really, like, I think anything that was slightly off just sent me back into a real, real state, like when I called the GP when I found out I was pregnant again and said, I, I just want to find out because of COVID what's happening in terms of appointments and stuff, and, you know, should we book in the initial conversation with the midwife or, you know, so on and so forth. And she said, oh, we won't book anything in yet I don't think in case it goes wrong like last time. And I just like, I couldn't unhear that for the whole three months basically. But it it just, the lack of understanding around this stuff, like even from a female GP I was like, what the fuck. And I wrote to the surgery, and I just was like, never got a response, but I was like, this is a disgrace, like, this is incredibly damaging. And I don't want anyone else to hear that. And I certainly don't want to deal with that GP again. It's like, I don't know whether you know and when I didn't get response and when that same GP called me up to set something else up. I just got my partner to call the surgery and be like, look like we've been really clear like this is, this isn't okay. And you know, but there was, there was just like zero response basically. And then, and then I was, I think because of lockdown amplifying it as well, my anxiety was really high. We, I'd just lost all my work, including a three month tour. And it turned out my partner had just gotten a new job. So he'd been sacked by this theatre who, two weeks into lockdown with a week's pay and he had just gotten a job working for the NHS in communication randomly, and had realised that his, his line manager one day a week still worked as a midwife, which is what she trained as. And he just said, any tips on like, what we can do, because Lucy's anxiety is through the roof, and she was like, call this consultant. And he said, what had happened with the GP, she said, call this consultant. And I just explained, I said, look, there's nothing wrong, but I, I'm really struggling. And he was like, well, let's book you in for a scan. And then he, I think I had three in the first 12 weeks. Like, and it just, it meant all I had to get through was another two weeks, not three months. But that, I felt like, like, I'd made a huge fuss and I felt like a nuisance and like all of this, but because, because the provision of care is so limited, generally. But I would love to see that change, like, and he would, and it just seems to be it depends on the individual. He obviously just, like got it and was empathetic and was like, well, I mean, you can't go on like this for three months. And I was like, okay great. Yeah.
Speaker 1
How do you feel about the experience now?
Speaker 2
I'm still horribly sad. But, of course, it's completely changed because of being pregnant again. Like, so it's still there. But it's softer, it's, it's much more okay. And I'm sure I'd have got there if I wasn't pregnant again. But it feels like that is a whole different journey that I have not been on. And I know a lot of people whose only experience of pregnancy is miscarriage, and touch wood, that's not the case for me. So I think it changed how I felt about the second pregnancy. I mean, yeah, there was the anxiety but also there was like a deepened appreciation of just like, the sort of, oh my god, wow, what's going to happen of it. I think my response to the loss also allowed me to, I think I'd had a lot of trouble for a long time letting myself want to be a parent, probably in part because of mental health stuff that has been hard for me and has made me kind of question that and whether I'd be okay at it, etc. But also, I think the push and the pull of like letting that big chaotic adventure into your life and deciding like yeah, I would love to do that. And my, I think my feelings of grief after losing Tiny were so big, I was like, there you go, of course you want it. So that complication hasn't been in my head like I know I want, like I know this is what I want. And it, I have also, because of course, been thinking about like, doing bits of writing about it and wondering where this might come in my work and loving hearing when other people are making something, anything about it. You know if it's, or coming across like as soon as you said, oh this book, I'm immediately like, oh what book? My partner got me this huge book of like collected Sylvia Plath poems with that one line in it. It's like ridiculous. The other thing that I made this, which sits by my desk, she's quite ridiculous, but sort of excellent.
Speaker 1
(indicates a small statue) She's quite fabulous. Did you knit the hat as well?
Speaker 2
No I wish, I got it off one of those innocent smoothie bottles. I had to, had to adjust, it was a bit big. And I painted her, but I was also looking for rituals, or ceremonies or like, like sort of wanting to type into Google, but knowing nothing helpful would come up by like, how do people do this? How do you cope, when you're not really seemingly meant to have a particularly big response to it? And then I came across all this, all the stuff that is done in Japan, in temples, and, have you read about those statues? Oh, my God, it's amazing. So, what are they called, again? I'll look, I'll look up the name, it's gone out of my head. [Jizo statues] But basically, there are these Buddhist temples that are specifically for lost children [Mizuko Kuyo temples]. Honestly, it's amazing. Like, it's like they've, they've gone, oh, no, hold on, this is a big thing that people will hold with them for the rest of their lives. And so there are these temples full of these, like big versions of these, like, sort of peaceful little statues. And people dress them and bring them offerings, and you can kind of walk amongst all of the other ones. But there's a place to go, there's a place to put their, put their feelings. So I found that really helpful. And, and also, just as a couple having these, these counseling sessions, because I also realised quite quickly that although my partner was very distressed at the time, either because of all the stuff going on for him at work or other, other things, cut him off from his process. And so I quite often felt very alone within it. And I think that could have caused us a lot more. A lot more problems if it hadn't been for this. Yeah, these sessions with this counsellor, but the two of us being there, and me being able to say, I just, I still feel, I still feel it all, and I can still and I, I know it was in my body. But I'm still really attached to the idea that there was a little person that we're going to meet. And we won't. And that will always be there. And that's okay. And it gets more okay. But yeah, I felt like I was, I was going like, it makes me angry that you're not feeling that. And having someone to like, just help navigate that, like, unknown territory of it was was really helpful.
Speaker 1
Is there anything else that you'd like to share about your experience?
Speaker 2
No, I don't think so. I think like there are wishes I have, like I wish we could all join up more about it and talk more about it. Because it feels, it feels so hidden. And it doesn't need to be, it's, it's just a hard thing, but I think it makes it a million times harder, feeling like there's this huge taboo around it. And when you mention it, it's like, it's like you've run around naked, swearing at people for a bit. Everyone's like, oh my god, like. And yeah, just that experience of even kind of talking about it more openly means that yeah, like, all these friends who had one and some of them you know, there are a couple of friends who've been like, like, honestly, like one particular friend, she's like, yeah, I had a miscarriage like couple of years ago and actually, I felt quite philosophical about it. And, and she was like, I think that's largely because I already had a little girl and so on. But that was her. And she was like, but that was my experience. Like, she was really, like clear about that. But the majority, like one of my oldest friends said, she's now got three kids and, but her first pregnancy was a miscarriage, ended in miscarriage. Yeah, when I was talking to her about my experience, and I think I was pregnant again, by that point, she was like, oh mate, like, she, she said, she said, she had no idea what to do with the feelings of it. And she said, it kept coming out to like, strangers, she was like, or not quite people who weren't quite strangers, but she was like, colleagues that were. They didn't really know each other. And she was just like, but there was nowhere to put it. It was so big. And you're at that point of the pregnancy where no one is talking about it? Or, you know, and no one can see it. It's a bit like mental health in that way. I think.
Speaker 1
You can't see it, so it's not there.
Speaker 2
Yeah, somehow. So I think that there's a wish for just more open-ness and conversation and bits of art about it, and then bits of fucking research, like because just this expectation that they just go, well, we don't know, but try again, is terrifying. It's like, well, can't you at least have a look? Isn't someone going to have a look? What if there's, like literally, what do you expect me, do you expect me just to bounce back if this happens again?
Speaker 1
Well, they don't investigate until you've miscarried three times.
Speaker 2
Which is in a humane, it is inhumane? Because it's so traumatic. But it's, and I don't understand that equation. The oh, well, it's really common. Therefore, it's normal? And manageable? It's like, no dude. Like, I mean, poverty is fucking common, it's not alright. Like, all these things that are really common, can also not be okay. But the lack of provision around it and the, and the lack of available care, and that you have to happen upon somebody who's, or you have to be in a certain postcode or, like, I had no idea. I like I had no expectation around this bereavement counseling, but honestly, like, I mean, just because we happen to be in a county that offers it. Like, I don't know anyone else who I've since heard has had a miscarriage has had that.
Speaker 1
No, I mean, I paid privately to go and have bereavement counseling, but the fact, yeah, it's, it should be given shouldn't it really.
Speaker 2
Yeah, totally. Totally. Totally.
Speaker 1
Well, I am so sorry for everything that you've been through. And thank you so much for talking to me about it.
Speaker 2
A pleasure. I think it's, it's a really, really valuable thing you're doing and I wish you all the good for it. If I can be of any use at any other point in whatever capacity, please reach out.
Speaker 1
Thank you. And so I'll stop. I'm amazed, what's your little, your little angel person?
Speaker 2
Yeah, hold on. I've got to find. I've got to find the name of these statues. [Jizo Statues, Mizuko Kuyo temples]